Jessica Spiers:
And if anything, what I hope that my children get from this experience of growing up on the homestead and doing all this work and having a hand in their food is that they will be better stewards wherever God places them in life. And I say this all the time, I even have a preservation challenge centered around where every bit counts. Every bit of your effort matters. And for every task that you could try to do yourself and produce yourself instead of consuming what someone else made, that helps your budget a little bit and is one step better in stewarding the earth a little better.

Anna Sakawsky:
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You can head to azurestandard.com right now to get started. Again, that’s azurestandard.com. Well, hello everyone and welcome to episode number 21 of The Coop. I’m your host, Anna Sokowski, editor-in-chief of Homestead Living Magazine. And today we are diving into a topic that feels especially relevant right now as the world gets more expensive and feels more fragile and uncertain every day. As food and gas prices continue to rise, household budgets are stretched thin, supply chains feel shaky and more people are starting to question whether the modern lifestyle of convenience and constant consumption is truly sustainable. We’re also seeing a resurgence of interest in homesetting and in traditional household skills like gardening, food preservation, cooking from scratch, and all of the practical skills that previous generations once considered completely normal. And that’s because learning these skills helps build resilience so that you have something stable to hold onto when the world itself feels a litle bit unstable, but also having the skills and resourcefulness to take care of yourself and your family in good times and bad is literally like having money in the bank because not only is it a hedge against uncertainty, but knowing how to grow, cook, preserve, build, craft and repair things yourself can save you tons of money as well, especially as many of the things that have been affordable in the past for so long are now costing more and more every day.
So today we are talking all about the economics of homesteading and how combining modern homesteading with the principles of traditional home economics can help families stretch their budgets and build greater stability. So joining me for this conversation is Jessica Spears of Three Rivers Homestead. Jessica is a homesteading and homeschooling mother of nine who lives with her family in Northwest Ohio. She’s also a contributor to Homestead Living Magazine and through her YouTube channel and online platform, she teaches others how to grow, preserve and prepare food frugally while cultivating a home-centered life rooted in faith, family, and stewardship. She recently wrote an article for the latest issue of homestead living called The Return of Home Economics: Why Homesteading is the New Home Ec, where she explores how modern home setting is helping families reclaim practical household skills that previous generations actually once learned through home economics classes in school.
So today, Jessica and I are talking about what homesteading really is at its core, not just the aesthetic version that we often see online nowadays, but the practical side of using what you have, stewarding your resources wisely, living more intentionally and teaching the next generation the skills that are going to help them to become capable and resilient adults. We’re also talking about whether homesteading actually saves money, how to approach it without turning it into an expensive hobby and why the principles of old-fashioned home economics may be more relevant today than ever before. So with that, I welcome Jessica Spears to the show.

Jessica Spiers:
Hi, thank you for having me.

Anna Sakawsky:
Well, thanks for being here. I really enjoyed your latest article. I actually reached out to you because I saw that you had been talking about this more and more on your Instagram. You mainly kind of share content through your Instagram stories and through your YouTube channel and you had started sharing some stuff on Instagram and then you did a bit of a series on YouTube where you walked people through the kind of five core principles of home economics, which you covered in your article, which we’re going to be going through today. But I just thought, A, it’s really relevant obviously right now more than ever, but these are all things that I think anybody can do. You don’t need tons of land. You don’t really even need any land. You don’t even need to be homesteading to apply these things. So I find that they’re very practical and just very attainable for most people.
And so I wanted to obviously have you share some of that in an Article for Homestead Living, but I wanted to dive a little bit deeper into this idea of the kind of overlap between home setting and home ec today. So before we really dive in, I would love to just start by having you share a little bit more about your family and homestead. So where you live, the age range of your children, because obviously with nine children, you’re going to have quite an age range, what you grow and raise and what day-to-day life looks like for you and your family.

Jessica Spiers:
Okay. Well, I live in Northwest Ohio and my husband Adam and I have nine children. As you mentioned, they range in age from our youngest. It’s just a little over one year old and our oldest is 18. He just graduated high school last week. So we have everything in between there. They keep us very busy. I obviously homeschool them, as you mentioned. And then on our homestead, it actually began for many reasons, which I’ll get into later, but a large part of the homestead is complimenting our homeschool work and teaching the children these skills that you mentioned that are part of a home economics education, but also then the great thing is we get food from it. And so on our homestead we have a garden, we have fruit trees, we had chickens end up, chicken both for eggs and for meat and we raised our own beef.
And right now that’s what we’re doing. I can’t think of much else. We did bees for a while, but I had a bad encounter with the bees and so I kind of passed that on to a family member who’s doing that now for us for our honey. But that’s what we’re doing here. I’m passionate about homesteading and primarily as you mentioned about home economics and law school that used to just be something that everybody did. I think nowadays people think of homesteading as something special that only people with a lot of land can do, but throughout history these skills and these principles that we’re going to talk about today were something that every family did just to have a healthy home economy and finances and to be able to produce healthy food for their family. So it’s something you can do anywhere and our journey in homesteading started long before we moved to this particular property 10 years ago.
I started applying these principles to my life when we were living in the suburbs with hardly end land and just working on the skills of doing more from scratch ourselves, cooking, canning, growing a little garden in whatever space that we had and we just continue every year to try to expand those skills. So that’s what I’m passionate about. I’m so excited to talk about this today because this is my favorite thing to talk about
Home setting as it relates to home economics.

Anna Sakawsky:
Awesome. Well, okay. So you kind of mentioned that we’ll get back to what got you into homesteading the first place. So I don’t think you grew up doing this, did you? You’re one of the many of us that kind of came to this a bit later in life. So what was your original, I guess, what drew you to homesteading originally and has your why changed over the years and what would you say is the bigger purpose behind this lifestyle choice for you and your family today?

Jessica Spiers:
Absolutely. I did not grow up doing this. I had the very typical Midwestern suburban upbringing in a neighborhood kind of setting and all of that. And as I got older, I had an interest. I’ve always been kind of outdoorsy and loved nature. So there was like an interest in gardening and animal husbandry. But then when I had my oldest child, he has anaphylactic food allergies and so feeding him became quite a challenge and actually quite expensive because most store bought foods just weren’t necessarily processed store bought foods weren’t an option for him. And so purchasing those whole food ingredients in the store, I quickly realized that the better decision would be to try to produce as much of that ourselves. On top of that, I’ve had my own health concerns. I have Crohn’s disease, which I’ve been able to manage without pharmaceutical medication for the last, what would it be now, 14 years or so.
And so it started out primarily for those health and financial reasons. And then as my oldest child and the other children came along and we got to school age, I realized that growing this food would be a great compliment to their education, not just in terms of the science. I mean, when you’re growing food, you’re experiencing science every day. The world is sort of your classroom, but also in character building in the work and the chores that come along with having a productive homestead and then the basic life skills, the home economics skills that we’re going to talk about today that will help them have a healthy home economy as they grow up. So that’s sort of how we got here. I am a Christian and stewardship is an important part of my faith. And so I think homesteading and home economics tie into that idea of being a good steward of the resources that we’ve been given, our finances of the land that we’ve been blessed to live on of the children that we’ve been blessed with and preparing them as best as we can for the world.
So yeah, there’s so many reasons like the longer I’ve been doing this, the more I realize like I could go on and on about why
I love.

Anna Sakawsky:
Absolutely. It’s funny because I feel like there are kind of a handful of major reasons why I think most people come into this. Health is often a big one, but everybody kind of has their entry point. It might be different for everybody, but usually over the years, everybody ends up with all of the same, like you want to be a good steward, you want to live a self-sufficient, sustainable lifestyle, you want the health benefits. And one of the things that does draw people to homesteading is this idea that we can save money or at least be more food secure and that sort of thing, especially in the world we’re living in now where everything’s getting more expensive and supply chain disruptions and all that sort of thing. But on the topic of money, I think people have an idea that they’re going to start home setting and they want to live more simply and become more self-sufficient and save money, but sometimes that can unintentionally actually turn into just another consumer hobby where people feel like they need all the newest equipment, expensive setups, like perfect aesthetics and they end up sinking a ton of money into it and relying on just buying things in an effort to achieve their goals.
So I think that’s how we’re trained in our society is the solution is always, we’ll go buy something. So I think that it can get really expensive or I actually hear people who say they want to homestead, but it’s too expensive so they don’t even bother starting where meanwhile, I see that you really do seem to approach homesetting through a much more frugal and resourceful mindset that kind of old use it up, wear it out, make do or do without philosophy. So what would you say to people who feel like home setting is either too expensive to start or to those who may actually be spending more money than they’re saving in the pursuit of a simpler lifestyle?

Jessica Spiers:
Well, I would say that homesteading, it’s such a broad label. There are so many individual activities that could fall under that umbrella and for every person’s unique situation, not all of them are going to make great economic sense. You have to look at your time. Are you working a full-time job the amount of land that you have? We’re talking about homesteading in terms of raising something like protein sources. Are you going to be able to grow your own hay or are you going to have to outsource that? Anything that you’re doing, there are so many variables and it’s not going to be the same for everybody. And just because you can’t do a couple of things that fall under the homesteading umbrella doesn’t mean that you can’t homestead at all. There are other things that you can do that make sense and everybody has to look.
So for some people, maybe growing a garden is a great idea that makes a lot of sense, but raising protein forces just isn’t going to work in your situation. Or maybe for some people they can’t grow a garden, but they have really good options for purchasing produce in bulk from local farmers. And so purchasing it is preserving it and using home skills of food preservation, that makes the most sense for them. And so you don’t have to copy what everybody else is doing. And I think if we talk about some of these principles of home economics, like home economic, it’s a very deliberate intentional act of deciding what makes sense for your home and your family and there’s a lot of planning involved in it. But yeah, like you said, if you just go into it trying to copy what other people are doing without doing the research and the work behind the scenes before you get into it, you’re just going to end up with a very expensive hobby that makes zero financial sense.
And so yeah, you just need to be very intentional with the choices that you make and not try to copy what you see happening on social media because a lot of that just isn’t realistic for the average person.

Anna Sakawsky:
Absolutely. And I would kind of add to that, that you don’t necessarily need to do all of it, nor do you need to do all of it at once. I think that there’s often this pit that people fall into where it’s like when you start anything, it’s like when you start, I think of like starting a workout regime and you get really excited and so you go really hard and then it becomes unsustainable. So you stop doing it altogether rather than slowly building over time. And I mean to that point too, the reality is that there are certain aspects of homeselling that do require real investment either upfront or at the time of purchase. So things like fencing infrastructure, garden beds, investing in certain tools, maybe a good pressure canner, maybe a freeze dryer at some point, buying in bulk, maybe filling the freezer with a half a cow or buying in bulk when things are in season.
Those can be big expenditures at the time and that’s, I think, why it can feel really expensive to people, especially if they’re trying to do all those things in the first couple years thinking they need all of that. But in your experience, how does that stack up over time compared to the standard modern lifestyle of just going to the grocery store whenever you need something? How have you approached it over the years and how do you discern between something that’s a worthwhile investment versus just an expense?

Jessica Spiers:
Yeah. I mean, I agree with what you’re saying and I would say everything’s going to cost you something. It’s either going to cost money or it’s going to cost you a lot of effort and sweat and work to accomplish it. We started very slow on our homestead. We moved here, obviously infrastructure. There was some fencing, like you said, of things that we needed to invest in to get started, but we couldn’t afford to buy everything that we would need at first and that just meant that we had to do a lot more of the physical labor in the years leading up. And so knowing that we had small children to take care of and I’m busy homeschooling, there’s only so much time I would have to do that physical labor. And so we had to be very intentional about which activities that we would choose.
And we made a rule in the very beginning that we would only add one new project every year that when we moved to this home, so the first year we’ll invest in the gardens and we’ll get that going and then maybe the next year we’ll expand the chicken coop and put in a larger run for them and just do one thing at a time. But there were many years, like let’s say a tractor. A tractor is a huge experience home, but it’s also extremely helpful to have on the home dead. But we lived here for seven years, six years I think before we had the money available to do that. And so it just meant a lot of moving veil to pay by hand with three of us rolling that round veil across from one side of the property to the other. It just took us more time and a lot more energy, but you do it to get it done until you can save up to afford the equipment that you’re going to need.
And so you just kind of have to be selective in that way. And if you’re not willing to do the hard work and you don’t have the finances to purchase the equipment, then that’s not an activity that you should pursue and that’s how you can kind of weed out what is and isn’t part of your effort on the homestead.

Anna Sakawsky:
Right. And another layer to that, I guess, is how have you decided outside of just what can we afford and that sort of thing, but what to prioritize first maybe it’s, “Oh, I really need to invest in the canner or whatever this year.” But I feel like with homesteading because there’s so many different areas of it, it’s like, “Oh, but we also need the garden beds or we need this and we need the greenhouse.” That’s, I think, where it can get overwhelming for people too is like they’re just, “Yeah, okay, I know I can only do so much, but where do I even focus?” So how have you decided where to prioritize your time, energy, money over the years?

Jessica Spiers:
Okay. So starting out when we first moved here, like I said, I had small children and was actively pregnant on and off it seemed like every other year. And so a lot of determining which projects made the most sense was what I had the energy or the time to actually do with children in tow. And so that weeded out a whole lot of things. Even in terms of raising our own beef, when we first moved here, my oldest child was only seven or eight. My husband works off the homestead every day and dealing with, let’s say, a cow gets loose or having to move, like I said, that the big bales of hay across the property wouldn’t have been possible for me to do. And so that was off the table until I had older children that were capable of helping me with those types of things.
And so we prioritized the things that not only made the most financial sense, but made the most sense for me to be able to accomplish while also taking care of all of the other responsibilities that I had with just the family and things like that. And so for us, chickens, they were much easier. Kids could help with chicken chores. They’re pretty low investment. We cobbled together a coop out of just random junk those first couple years because of what we could do and fencing was hodgepodge, but we made it work and it was really fun. And then as time went on, we were able to get better fencing and another coop and you just prioritize it that way.

Anna Sakawsky:
Yeah. Okay. Well, let’s get into these principles of home economics. So you recently wrote an article, as I mentioned for Homestead Living, The Return of Home Economics, Y Home Setting is the new Home Act where you draw parallels between homesteading and the kind of more practical home economics skills that were taught to us in schools back in the day. So before we touch on the principles, what was the original purpose of HOMEC in schools and how did it evolve over time and why do you think that we maybe started to value these skills less and less?

Jessica Spiers:
Yeah, I think originally when Home X became a part of mainstream curriculum, I think it was probably in maybe the 1940s or so they started a campaign to really teach this and it makes sense. If you think about World War II era, victory gardens, all of this, we’ve got people really focusing on trying to produce as much food from the home as possible, preserve that food and have really healthy home economies. And in time, I just think the world changed a lot with a focus on less production happening in the home to now we live in a society where two parents often work outside of the home and we want to consume more than actually produce more out of the home. And so we saw, I mean, it’s a direct relation to as that happened over time, that home economics curriculum definitely changed from the focus being the home economy to being consumers.
And you can see it in the 1990s, the curriculum, even the name of it shifted from home economics to family and consumer sciences. And then I would say now in a lot of places, it’s just consumer sciences with the focus on learning these skills and making you employable out in the world, not necessarily learning those skills to use them in the home setting, if that makes sense.
So yeah, that’s kind of how I see where we got to where we are. And then my generation, I classify myself as an elder millennial. I grew up not having home economics even in the 90s. I do remember there being some consumer sciences classes, maybe some culinary arts or some child development, but I felt like the focus on all of that was maybe learning those skills to apply them and becoming a chef or becoming a daycare worker, not necessarily on learning them for my home. And so those of us who grew up with that gap in our education in the meantime also saw the economy becoming harsher and harsher and harder to raise our families with the price of food skyrocketing and then that gap in our knowledge of not knowing how to control that ourselves. And so I think that’s why we see the popularity in our generation in looking to homesteading and it’s sort of becoming this replacement for that education that we didn’t receive through either the school system or generationally from our grandmas and our mothers passing it down.
And now we have this great tool of the internet to kind of help us learn from others how to do those things. I think that’s kind of how we’ve gotten to where we are today.

Anna Sakawsky:
Yeah. It’s interesting. I remember I did, so I’m in Canada, I don’t know if they actually do still … My daughter’s still in elementary, so we’ll see what happens when she goes into high school. I don’t know if they still have home ec classes. So many of those extras have been cut due to funding and that sort of thing. I remember even when I took … It was home ec at the time, but I just remember I didn’t really take it seriously because it wasn’t an academic course. There wasn’t a lot of … And I don’t remember it ever actually being explained through any, because we had four or five different teachers depending on whether you’re doing cooking or sewing or woodworking or whatever it was. And I don’t actually remember any of them explaining why we were learning it. I didn’t realize … And now, of course, looking back and knowing what I do and especially living this lifestyle, I think that those are probably some of the most important classes that we could have been taught, but there was a disconnect.
We were just so focused on it’s your academic grades that matter and I just didn’t really see … And I think that’s maybe where a lot of people come from is they don’t really see the value in it. But as you say, I think more and more people are understanding the value of that as they’re realizing how applicable it is to the real world. And you said something about changing from the home sciences or whatever they call to consumer sciences, right? The home economy to consumer sciences and this whole emphasis on being consumers over the years. And it seems like that’s all we’ve been trained up to do and to be, is to either be consumers or to produce for other people’s consumption to keep the economy going. And it’s funny, when I think about what homesteading is at its core, for me, I always say that it’s a lifestyle of production rather than just simply consumption, right?
Whatever you can actually be producing at home, then you’re not having to consume that or purchase that or source that from elsewhere. And again, you can do this on any level, even like you say, even if you don’t can’t grow garden, you can cook a meal at home or you can learn how to preserve or whatever. So it’s just that mindset of being a litle bit more of a producer than just having to consume everything.

Jessica Spiers:
Oh, go ahead.

Anna Sakawsky:
Yeah, I was just going to say, so let’s start with the principles. So I think I have them in the right order, but there’s five kind of core principles that you talk about that kind of overlap between homesteading and home economics. And those are planning, production, prevention, price comparison, and resourcefulness. So let’s start with planning. So what does that mean in the context of homesteading? What does that look like in practice?

Jessica Spiers:
Okay. I like to think of each one of these principles, you could think of a reason why someone would homestead. Every reason you could think of to start homesteading could be labeled as one of these principles. And so when we think about planning, it’s a lot about preparation. There are a lot of people who choose to homestead. We might label them as preppers, but they’re just trying to be prepared for any habituality. It could be economic problems, political problems, just being prepared for whatever life might throw at you, having a litle bit of extra food in the pantry just in case someone gets sick and you can’t make it to the grocery store next week or whatever. And so I think that planning is a really important part of homesteading for that reason. This is how we could be most prepared. And in terms of our economy of the home and when we talked about earlier, like deciding which projects that we’re going to do on the homestead make sense, it’s that planning process that is going to help us make that decision.
And so running into these activities blind without doing any planning, that’s how it turns into what we were talking about before, just an expensive hobby. And so yeah, it’s just a really important principle of both home economics in terms of your finances, but also in terms of the homestead and determining which things make the most sense.

Anna Sakawsky:
Yeah. Well, I even think of, and again, whether you’re homesteading or not, I’m a planner in that I’m always planning ahead for the next season or the next year or whatever. So that means, for example, even something like, okay, Christmas ends. And then I’m thinking about next year already because I know that I can get things on sale now, put them away and then not be paying top dollar leading up trips or heading into the summer. I’m thinking about like, maybe I want to get my canning supplies now before they run out because there’s a rush on all that stuff at the store or while there’s this, again, a sale on. I’m kind of always thinking about the next season, trying to get things off season so that I can save a little bit of money, but also have them put away for when I need them.
And that’s something that again, you can apply whether you’re homesteading or not, right?

Jessica Spiers:
Yeah. I mean, homesteading is cyclical by nature, right? You’re going to have seasons of abundance and you’re going to have seasons where you’re not growing anything and so you have to plan ahead for that. And so now what’s on my mind is we’re in the season of abundance when it comes to eggs. This is the time of year where the chickens and the ducks are just laying a ton. And so I need to plan ahead now for the winter when they tend to take a break and don’t have as many and due to work now to prepare in advance for that. And so every activity that you do on the homestead, because it’s cyclical in nature is going to require some planning, looking out a couple months into the future or a year into the future and see where you’ll be at and then plan the activities for the growing season to make sure that you’re going to be covered in that time period.

Anna Sakawsky:
Absolutely. Okay. Let’s talk about, sorry, what’s next? I don’t know if you have a specific … Is it prevention or production? Okay, I have production. So let’s talk about production. What does that look like?

Jessica Spiers:
Yeah. I mean, when we talk about the reasons people get into homesteading, I think production is a big one. There is this drive to want to kind of do it ourselves, to produce it because we think we can create a better product or a safer product or a healthier product, a product that might be cheaper and that is kind of the core of what homesteading is. So you’re producing food, you’re producing an education for your children if you’re involving them in this process. And so it really is a poor tenant of what homesteading has become and it’s a poor tenant of a healthy home economy. Nine times out of 10, it’s going to cost less when you produce it yourself versus having to pay for the labor of somebody else to have to produce it for you.

Anna Sakawsky:
What do you say to people? Because I know that there are folks out there, I have some in my family that are like, “Why Why would I grow my own tomatoes and I can go to Walmart and get it for cheaper than it’s going to cost and I’m not going to have to do all the work and that sort of thing.

Jessica Spiers:
Well, yeah. I mean, that could be the case. I did another video series on that where sometimes it doesn’t make sense to grow it yourself from a financial perspective. And it could just be that you haven’t done the planning to really look or the price comparisons to look and see if maybe where you’re purchasing that plant start or if you’re not purchasing them or starting the seeds yourself, that might not make the most sense. And maybe tomatoes aren’t something that you grow. Maybe it makes more sense to go to a local farm and purchase tomatoes from someone else. But if it’s not tomatoes, maybe it’s something else that you grow and place of tomatoes. But just having a production mindset of producing something is I guarantee if it’s not tomatoes, there’s something else that’s more expensive for you to purchase in the grocery store than it is to grow it yourself and you just have to determine what those things are.
And it is about more than just cost. I mean, there are other reasons to homestead. The nutrients in your homegrown tomato or the flavor in your homegrown tomato might be different than what you could purchase in the store, especially off season or wherever. And so there are a lot of factors that go into it. Obviously, when you’re talking about a home economy, finances are going to be a huge portion of it, but it is always about that. Sometimes there’s a trade off to when it comes to flavor and health as well.

Anna Sakawsky:
Yeah, absolutely. I think it’s important to literally and figuratively compare apples to apples. So if you’re growing a beautiful homegrown organic tomato that tastes amazing and you’re comparing it to the conventionally grown tomato at Walmart that is flavorless and is stripped of nutrients and everything, then the comparison is not … Yeah, we’re not being super accurate with it. But if you were going to go purchase that organic tomato grown locally and everything else, then probably at that point producing it yourself is cheaper. So I think it’s a good point that just you need to make sure that you’re actually comparing things to like things, right?

Jessica Spiers:
Yeah. And I think a lot of people think growing a tomato has to be expensive because they’re used to seeing the plant starts that are available at Lowe’s or these big box stores where one tomato plant is costing them five or $6 and they’re like, “Well, that’s silly for the number of tomatoes I’m going to get off it. Why does it work all that time and effort?” But there are much better ways I would say to obtain a plant start like that. There might be a local farmer that sells plant starts or I know there are some online delivery places that I purchased plants starts from before for half of that price. Local greenhouses I can get a flat of tomatoes for $11 and it has like 48 plants in it or start it by yourself. And when you do the math, which I’ve done series before in videos detailing the map on these things, I very rarely find it where purchasing it is going to make better financial sense than doing it yourself.
You just have to look at all the options and not just go for the easiest one, which might be the tomato start that’s available at the Lowe’s store or something.

Anna Sakawsky:
Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Let’s talk about prevention. What does that mean? What are we preventing?

Jessica Spiers:
Well, the reasons for homesteading, once again, a lot of people myself, why did I get into it for the first reason was for health reasons. I’m preventing having to be on pharmaceutical drugs, control my Crohn’s disease. I wanted to be able to grow food. I knew what was in it. I knew it would be safe. It wouldn’t have those allergens for my son and things like that. So it’s preventing health outcomes. It’s preventing unnecessary spending. Homesteading is preventing a lot of maybe environmental issues that could come about from growing things conventionally versus maybe doing it in a more sustainable way on the homestead. There’s a lot of prevention involved there. It’s preventing having to go to the grocery store. For me, in the middle of winter in January, it’s cold here in Ohio, it’s icy, the roads, it’s cold in flu season and everybody’s coughing out in public and homesteading prevents me from having to load all my kids up and go to the grocery store because my pantry is stocked and I can stay home where it’s warm and cozy and eat from the work that we did over the summer.

Anna Sakawsky:
Right. And food waste, I know you mentioned you did a video I believe on prevention and you talked about in that video that households are actually responsible for 43% of all food waste and that the average family throws away between $1,500 and $2,000 worth of food each year. And I see that. And it’s so funny just because I’m a real stickler about not wasting food. It can’t go anywhere else, it goes to the chickens or the compost, but we use everything because we value it because we know what it takes. But again, I know people that are quite close to me that when I spend time with them and I just watch the things they throw away, I’m like, “We barely touch that or whatever.” And I just think that it’s hard to watch sometimes just knowing how much that costs and how much that would take to produce, right?

Jessica Spiers:
Oh man, just like we talked about stewardship and all of that, just the idea of throwing away food in plastic that’s going to go in a landfill when it could become compost or it could be an animal or something. Oh, and there’s something too about having a hand in growing your food, watching these animals that you raise and then you butcher and then you consume. It’s like just the act of homesteading alone prevents you from wasting that because it’s like, I have too much respect for this animal and this work that I did. And so we’re going to eat what’s on our plate so we’re going to use every bit of that animal that we possibly can because wasting it just feels so wrong. This is once again, something that everybody used to do. Everybody had some backyard chickens or everybody had a garden and they threw stuff in the compost bin because people didn’t have trash services way back in the day.
And so I think it’s just not just preventing financial waste or food waste, but it’s the right decision in terms of stewardship and the environment.

Anna Sakawsky:
Absolutely. And just having that connection to our food too and understanding more on a deeper level how food works, how long it actually lasts. For example, I know people that they just go by, it says it’s best before this date. And so I will toss it if it’s not … I had somebody I knew that was like, “Oh, this mustard says it expired like a week ago.” Well, mustard is like, it’s not something that’s going to easily go bad. And again, there’s a difference between say something that’s best before and something that’s got an expiry date on it and knowing how to actually discern that for yourself, but so much food I think gets wasted that way too. I bet a lot of it outside of just fresh produce that kind of wilts or goes bad and gets thrown away because people don’t know how to preserve it properly now is probably things that have some sort of a date on them because they’re mandated to have it and people that just don’t understand what that actually means.
So they just automatically toss it if it’s past its best before date. So just understanding some of those things, even if we’re not producing it ourselves, like just having a better understanding of how that works so that we can be more mindful of

Jessica Spiers:
Buying and

Anna Sakawsky:
Using-

Jessica Spiers:
Speaking of old home economics versus newer versions of it, they used to focus on food preservation and teaching food safety from that perspective like, okay, vinegar preserves things. Why would mustard go bad because vinegar preserves it and it’s all about acidity levels. I’ve even shown people online the difference between canning guides that were made in the 1940s, 1950s. I have copies of some of them where there was actual food safety education in them versus the ones that are made now that just don’t have that information in them. And so a lot of these family and consumer science classes as they shifted away from home economics and teaching people about the basics of food safety in a home setting shifted to more commercial food safety and focusing on expiration dates and Best Buy date and just trusting that. And if your food’s left out all of the commercial canning rules or commercial food safety rules and everybody just lost all that knowledge of traditional preservation methods and what need.
And I feel like that’s why canning is a lost art too, because people don’t understand how it works. They haven’t had that education. And I feel like a lot of the fear with canning and food preservation goes away once you understand botulism can’t grow in this environment as long as you do that. So yeah, it’s really stabbed because we just lost that knowledge over the years.

Anna Sakawsky:
Well, luckily it’s coming back. If the thought of raising chickens has ever intimidated you, consider this your sign to stop putting it off. Murray McMurray Hatchery has been helping first time chicken keepers succeed for over a hundred years. They offer the widest selection of day old chicks and poultry, super low minimum orders, sometimes as few as one bird and the best guarantees in the business, live arrival, 48 hour livability, and 90% sexing accuracy. Plus they’ve got everything you need to raise happy, healthy birds right from the start. Brooders, feed, incubators, the works. It’s never been easier or safer to start your own flock, so visit mcmurrayhatchery.com and tell them the coop sent you. Again, that’s mcmurrayhatchery.com. The next one is price comparison. We also kind of talked about that, about comparing apples to apples and that sort of thing, but what else kind of falls under price comparison or how do you approach that when you are actually comparing and trying to figure out where to invest your money?

Jessica Spiers:
Yeah. I mean, we talked about this in the beginning. Not every activity is going to make great sense. I did a video on this year. In past years, I grew most of my plant starks for my garden myself. I had more space in my house. I had this large grow light set up and I just thought for many years that growing it myself, starting on my seedlings myself would make the most financial sense. And then last year I sat down and really did the math on it and I calculated the cost of the soil and the cost of the electricity and all of it. And I realized that actually for a lot of just generic plants that aren’t a special heirloom variety or a really unique niche variety or whatever, it made much more sense for me to purchase plant starts from our local nursery.
And then for my sanity too, I didn’t have all these grill lights using up space in my house, but so that was just one example of where doing the math and comparing the prices will help you determine what is the best use of your time and energy and money. I mean, home economics, this is like the cornerstone of it, right? We want to make sure that the food that you’re purchasing from the grocery store or the feed for your animals or whatever you’re doing, you want to be getting the best deal and it’s no different in your homesteading projects. So sometimes it makes sense to grow it yourself, sometimes it doesn’t. I mean, beef prices keep going up and up and up every year and the cost of way to purchase our beef calves to raise our beef and it’s hadrupled over the last probably five years, the cost of the cal and we’re getting to the point where it probably won’t make financial sense for us to do it if it keeps increasing.
And so that’s something you have to evaluate every year to decide maybe our efforts would be better moving towards pork or expanding the amount of water you’re doing instead of purchasing your caps.

Anna Sakawsky:
Yeah. Well, and same as when you’re kind of deciding if it’s worth it to raise your own animals or whether it’s worth it to just purchase from a local farmer as well. So again, I think you’re right, it really comes down to actually doing the math is a really important part of it because even at the grocery store, for example, you need to understand how to do the math on certain things because there will be things that are priced a certain way. But again, first of all, I try to teach this to my daughter a lot when we’re shopping together. First of all, we look at the ingredients, because again, you want to be sure … For example, we purchased a … We were making dinner the other night and I wanted just something quick and easy. So we got one of those roasted chickens from the grocery store and then we went over to Costco and I realized that it was like $5 less for one of those chickens there.
But then I was like, I looked at the ingredients and there’s all sorts of additives and stuff in there and seed oils and everything in the Costco one that the other one didn’t have. I’m like, well, for that $5, it’s worth it for me to pay that extra $5 to avoid all those other things. But the other thing that we look at is the unit price, right? Because you might have something that’s a couple dollars less than something else, but it’s a smaller amount that you’re getting. And when you actually price out the cost per unit, it makes sense to spend the extra couple bucks, or sometimes it actually makes sense to buy the smaller amount. You’d imagine that buying in bulk, sometimes you save money. That’s not always the case. I remember one of the most valuable lessons my mom ever taught me was how to purchase random weight cheeses, that if you got random weight cheeses, but they’re all priced the same, you look for the one that’s the highest weight, that’s actually the most expensive based on the weight of it, but then they’re all priced at the same price and so you grab that.
So that’s another thing that I’m teaching my daughter right now. So just little tips and tricks like that, that again, if you haven’t been taught, you don’t know and that’s just wasted money every time you go to the store then, right?

Jessica Spiers:
Yeah. And it goes back to the question about the tomato that you said you get asked a lot from people. It isn’t just comparing, like you said, apples to apples. We all know if you’re growing a garden or you’re raising animals that they’re only as nutritious as the soil they grow in or the feed that they’re given. And so just doing a price comparison without looking into all the other factors, like you said, the ingredients in the food or the soil that it’s being grown in just doesn’t make sense because the same two tomatoes can look identical from the outside, but when you actually did a nutrient analysis of them, you’re getting more bang for your buck in terms of actual nutrients from typically the homegrown one.

Anna Sakawsky:
Okay. And then the last one is resourcefulness. So obviously homesteading is kind of known the resourcefulness and homesteading kind of go together, but again, what does this look like in practice? I’m sure it kind of crosses over into a lot of these other principles as well.

Jessica Spiers:
Yeah. We were talking about the reasons people homestead and one of the big reasons would be for environmental reasons, looking for a better way than conventional agriculture and something that honors the animal a little more, gives them better quality of life and healthier living. And so I would say for the people that choose to homestead for environmental reasons that resourcefulness is probably the topic that most relates to that. And it is everything about homesteading. It’s using everything. Like you said, it’s using your food scraps to create compost. It’s using the food scraps to feed another animal. When you get that cow back from the butcher after you butcher it yourself, it’s using all of the organ meat and turning the bones into another product. All of these principles relate to one another, but it’s like resourcefulness, part of it is having a production mindset as well.
So not wasting anything, seeing what you can produce from every little thing. And yeah, just probably one of the most important principles behind production would be being as resourceful as possible.

Anna Sakawsky:
Absolutely. I see that a lot too with like my husband does all the building projects and everything around here and like right now he’s breaking down pallets, which we actually haven’t done in quite some time, but with the cost of lumber rising, he’s like, it’s now worth it again. Again, he had to do the math on it. And before lumber was cheap enough where it was like for the time and effort it took to break them down and get all the nails out and make it wasn’t worth it, but now it is again. So now he’s breaking down the pallets and he’s found he built us some raised beds last year and he wanted to build them out of cedar because long term, even though cedar is more expensive, it’s rot resistant so you’re not going to have to replace it as soon. So again, it’s that idea of like long term value as well.
Sometimes the cheapest product isn’t actually the most affordable if you price it over the long run if you have to replace it. So he wanted cedar, but he found a guy with a mill up the road who had a bunch of off cuts. So they weren’t the standard size lumber that he could sell through the stores or whatever. So it was priced much cheaper and we were able to do that. We were able to mulch our entire front yard and we were putting our gardens in for free basically because we got a local arborist to drop it off. So those type of things too, I think it’s all resourcefulness. It’s like, how can I repurpose something, get something for cheaper, make use of something that would be wasted anyway and then what is the actual value of that long term? Again, I always like to think about, is it an investment?
Is it something that maybe it costs a bit more now, but over the long term it’s going to be a lot cheaper than buying the cheap thing. And I even think about that in terms of like clothes. Not that they have to be expensive or brand name and sometimes the cheaper things are the better quality, but it really does come down to quality. You can get it at the thrift store, but it’s about the quality is it going to last? How many wears are you actually going to get out of it? Because if you’re only going to wear it once, it’s 10 bucks off of some cheap website, but then it falls apart, then what’s the point? So again, over the long term, does it have a return on investment, right?

Jessica Spiers:
Yeah. And I think this is one of the areas where social media can kind of do people a disservice because we talked earlier about how your homestead doesn’t have to look like everyone else’s and you don’t have to be doing what everybody else does. And there can be this inclination to see how other people are doing it and want to replicate it. And that usually makes us have to go out and purchase items to replicate what other people are doing. But at the core resourcefulness, it would be like trying to use what you already have and make it look your own way out of whatever. Yeah, it’s funny because you see a lot of people that have been homesteading for a long time and maybe their homesteads don’t look really aesthetically pleasing. They have things kind of cobbled together in a way and because they’re being resourceful and making use of, “Oh, I have this wood sitting here that I didn’t have any other use for.
” So we’ll turn that into the coop instead of having the nice fancy coop that I see in all the magazines or whatever. And so yeah, I think it’s not just important to not compare yourself to others in terms of determining which activities to do, but also in terms of how you’re going to do them, make it look like your own and use what you have. I get a lot of criticism honestly online for how my food looks. Have you been with me and this relates to it, but I love if you follow me for any time. I’m like the self-proclaimed queen of just taking leftovers and turning it into a new meal because it’s just like, why would I waste this food? I’m going to be resourceful and reinvent this into something else. And it keeps my grocery costs down and it prevents the waste of that food because I’d rather eat it than feed it to the animals.
I worked really hard, but people criticize and say, “Oh, that doesn’t look great. It’s soup. Why are you having soup all the time?” Well, it’s a great way to repurpose leftovers and be resourceful. What do our ancestors do? They had this continuous pot of soap that you don’t have to keep your own stuff on. So anyways, that mindset of being resourceful, it’s going to save you money, it’s going to be better for the environment. It’s just really important to your home economy and to the homestead.

Anna Sakawsky:
Yeah, for sure. I think we have to get beyond that mindset of it doesn’t look pretty. It’s like vegetables from the store too. We’re so used to things just looking perfect that you pull a carrot under the ground and it’s kind of got dirt embedded in it and little creases and this and that into the average person they probably go, ew, right? But actually that’s the healthier carrot that’s grown in organic soil and all these different things. And I think we’ve just been so trained to have this mindset of it needs to look a certain way. But historically, like you say, that’s not how it was. We just made deal with what we had and that’s how we have survived for so long, right?

Jessica Spiers:
Yeah. That’s how grandma and grandpa didn’t have debt. Yeah. But it’s all

Anna Sakawsky:
Related

Jessica Spiers:
To the topic we were talking about, the shift in mindset towards a consumer attitude versus a production attitude. When you’re consuming things that are mass produced that they’re created to be visually appealing and perfect and fake, fake food, food size, all of that, but the real stuff, the authentic stuff, it’s going to be imperfect. It’s going to look different.

Anna Sakawsky:
Okay. So you just mentioned something. You mentioned debt, which is something that a lot of people carry in some way. Now first off, how important is it do you think to have a written budget versus just kind of having an idea or keeping it in your head or maybe you do a budget every once in a while, but you’re not always staying on top of it. And do you think there is a place for using credit for certain things?

Jessica Spiers:
Yeah. Well, I would say debt in general is probably bad, but I do think there is a place for that.
My husband handles a lot of the budgeting for our family, so I won’t get into specifics of that, but I would say there probably is a place for debt in some situations, but having a budget absolutely important. I’ll put it on a micro scale just in my kitchen, my kitchen budget. I am a stickler with spending. I spend the same amount every month and track it and I’m very intentional about that. And when you’re feeding 11 people, if I went to the grocery store and I just threw in whatever I wanted, it would get out of control very quickly. And so I’ve always been a stickler about that. I think it’s extremely important. And because I’m such a stickler with the food budget and things, it frees up our money in other areas to be able to expand the homestead, do more projects, which in turn cut those grocery bills and make that budget smaller so that then we have more money to turn around and invest in the homestead and it just all is feeding itself that way.
So yeah, just like you’re not going to run into a homestead project without doing any planning. I mean, it’s one of the principles of a good home economy. Budgeting is planning. You got to have rules for spending and what is and isn’t going to be allowed. It’ll snowball out of control.

Anna Sakawsky:
And it’s important to actually look at the finances. I know it’s something that a lot of us don’t like to do, right? Especially as things get more expensive, you’re like, “Oh my goodness.” But it’s important because otherwise it is very easy to overspend. It’s very easy to have an idea and think you’re spending one thing and then you look and we did this with gas with the last month, especially with gas prices rising. My husband’s been working about 45 minutes north of where we live and so the back and forth was costing us like hundreds of dollars more than we thought. Luckily he’s actually working up at his mom’s place. So now that we know now he’s been staying up there one night a week and just instead of doing the back and forth more time just to save a litle bit. But again, we had to actually add it all up and look at the numbers to be like, “Holy, did you realize?” Because I said, “How much did you think we spent?” And he gave me a number and I said, “It’s actually this much.” He’s like, “What?” I’m like, “Yeah.” So yeah, definitely.
And I think again, as things get more expensive, that’s going to be more important because we have this outdated idea of what things cost, but that’s not maybe the reality now. Okay. Let’s talk about kids for a minute because this is another big important point that you brought up in your article. You wrote that homesteading offers a good opportunity to teach these skills to our kids. So you said, when kids grow up participating in the work of the household, they gain skills that translate directly into adulthood. It isn’t just about or just practical abilities they learn, but character qualities as well. Things like problem solving, service, stewardship and contentment. The lessons homesteading teaches build confidence and competence. Children who know how to cook, repair, grow, and manage resources are less dependent on systems that may not always serve them well and are better prepared for a future in an unstable economy.
What specific skill or skills do you think are most important for kids to learn today?

Jessica Spiers:
Hard work absolutely kids-

Anna Sakawsky:
Really?

Jessica Spiers:
Yes, absolutely. I mean, it sounds so general, but you’d be amazed out there at kids who’ve never had to work hard or things beyond their own selfish needs,

Anna Sakawsky:
Right? Oh, sorry. Did you say hard work? Just the skill of hard work. I thought you said artwork for a moment. I’m like, “Oh, that’s an interesting one. Maybe that’s okay.”

Jessica Spiers:
Oh, I’m sorry.

Anna Sakawsky:
I got just a litle glitch and you cut out for a sec. So hard work. Yes. Okay. Absolutely. Yeah.

Jessica Spiers:
Hard work, like I said, not just serving your selfish needs. There are some kids out there that work really hard maybe academically or in cleaning their own room or their own space and that’s wonderful, right? Kids should be working hard for that, but that’s all self-serving. And the great thing about the homestead is by nature, kids are going to be out there not just helping themselves because they get to eat the food, but they’re helping the entire family unit. They’re helping the animals. They’re doing physically demanding labor, sometimes mentally demanding labor when it involves some kind of problem solving, but they’re doing it for a greater good for the entire family. And so that would be advice I would give to mothers of children when you’re divvying out chores or doing whatever, make sure that the chores your children are doing are not just something that serve them.
And the great thing about a homestead is ample opportunities. And even if you don’t live somewhere where you can raise beef or chickens or whatever, maybe you have an indoor cat or maybe just something that is taken care of and working hard for something other than themselves.

Anna Sakawsky:
Absolutely. Now, obviously there’s a lot of talk about AI now and kind of the future of what that’s going to look like, taking people’s jobs, just taking over tasks for us where maybe we won’t have to do certain things. And again, I think we’re seeing right now over the past few years why it’s important to not lose these skills completely, but there are some things, for example, over the years that have become kind of obsolete. So one thing that comes to mind is most people are not washing their clothes by hand anymore. We have washing machines now and so doing that, not that that’s a particularly hard skill to learn if we had to, but you just kind of don’t have to anymore. And unless the whole grid goes down, that’s probably something that most people aren’t really going to need to worry about. Even just something like cursive writing in schools, they do a little bit in our schools, but they don’t focus on it like they did when I was a kid because now it’s all about typing and texting and that sort of thing and you don’t really need that skill anymore.
And a lot of jobs have obviously gone by the wayside over the years because of just skills that are outdated. Do you think that any of these kind of home X skills, do you think they really are timeless or do you think that any of them might become obsolete in the modern world?

Jessica Spiers:
I don’t see anything that we really do with our hands becoming obsolete. AI’s not going to be able to take over gardening for us. I don’t think it’s not going to be able to take over cooking and taking care of our animals for us. So I think those things are always going to be a tether to the real world and to what it means to be human and to experience the world, which is another reason I think homesteading has become so popular. There is sort of a desire deep in us in an ever increasingly technological world to find what is human and real in life. And so people want to get their hands in dirt and need the dough and all of that. AI won’t take over that, but the planning portion that we talked about, some of the other preparation work, I think AI could be a tool that could be used to make that easier for us.
And so some of that price comparison that we talk about or some of the budgeting and comparing costs of different activities AI could be a tool that could be used for good in that way, but I don’t ever see it actually replacing the work that is required to be a good home economist because we mentioned earlier, something’s either going to cost you money or it’s going to cost you your labor and one of the principles of being someone who is productive and isn’t a consumer, just by nature production requires work and effort and AI isn’t going to be able to take or that physical work that we have to do to have a healthy economy.

Anna Sakawsky:
Well, and just thinking economically too, right now it’s been introduced to us and it’s kind of open access to everybody, right? And I think that’s how they draw you in where you become kind of reliant on this, but that could change where they go, okay, now you got to pay. There’s design to paywall if you want access to this tool or whatever. And so at that point then again, you’re either paying for that or you need to do it yourself. And if you become reliant on that like anything nowadays and you lose that skill or it gets rusty, then you kind of have to relearn how to do that for yourself or be at the mercy of this system and whatever you have to pay to play, right?

Jessica Spiers:
Yeah. I think us with preparation, prepare for all eventual outcomes, it could be AI could be this scary tool that makes the world worse. It could end up if they solve some of the issues that we’re seeing, it could be this tool that could help humanity in certain ways. So I don’t know, I guess with anything that is the nature of homesteading is to be kind of prepared for all eventualities. It’s that prevention. We’re going to keep wearing these skills. We’re going to teach these skills to our children so that they can prevent losing that through the use of AI. So even if AI starts taking over some of this stuff, they’re not going to be at its mercy because they’ve been trained for any potential outcome.

Anna Sakawsky:
Right. Yeah. Okay. So you obviously homeschooled your children, and you talked a bit about how part of that decision and the decision to bring it and tie in home setting was so that you could incorporate that kind of in their curriculum almost, right? Yeah. And teach them some of these skills through that. But a lot of people are not homeschooling, maybe they’re stretched thin already, maybe both parents are working outside the home and they’re like, “I just need to get food on the table and get the kids to bed and get our bills paid. I don’t have time.” What are some simple, practical ways that families can begin involving their children in these everyday household tasks and teaching these skills naturally without feeling like it has to be part of some official homeschool curriculum or be another thing on the to- do list?

Jessica Spiers:
Yeah. I would say I have sympathy for the average parent who they’re working, two parents are working the kids are in school and kids are in activities and it’s really hard to feed people from scratch and enjoy that process when everybody’s running around. But I guess I would say that finding space in the week, even if it’s one meal a week on the weekend that you just prioritize being the big family dinner that you bring everybody together, you involve the kids in that process, have them help learn how to do some things and kids, they want to learn so much. They don’t differentiate between play and learning when it comes to these life skills and things. And so it kills multiple birds with one stone. You bring the kids in the kitchen, you’re teaching them life skills. They’re also getting time with mom and dad that they need after a busy week of everybody running around in different directions.
And it could be this calming focal anchor in your week that could bring everybody together and everybody’s learning and producing an amazing meal. And so yeah, it’s tough. The way the world is set up, this consumer mindset, we’re all on the go. I mean, I even feel it as my kids have gotten older and they’ve gotten busy outside of the home and I’m running them to and pro, it does strip a little bit of the joy out of cooking when you’re having to rush really quick to get it on the table to get people to where they go. But just find those anchors in the week where you can come together and let it be a contrapt. Let it be an escape from the busyness of the week and be a special time.

Anna Sakawsky:
What do you hope that your children carry with them from this lifestyle that you’ve lived and kind of everything you’ve taught them into adulthood? I know some of them are young adults now themselves and even if they choose not to homestead and follow in those footsteps, what do you hope that they take away and remember?

Jessica Spiers:
Yeah. If I’m honest, I doubt that very many of my kids will live similarly to how I’m living. I don’t foresee all of them having land and having beef cows and all of that, but the skills or I guess the character qualities that have been developed to hard work can be transferred anywhere. And I told you at the beginning of this stewardship, it’s driven by my faith. It’s such a core part of what I believe and it drives a lot of what I do and a lot of my decision making. And if anything, what I hope that my children get from this experience of growing up on the homestead and doing all this work and having a hand in their food is that they will be better stewards wherever God places them in life. If they’re living in a city or if they’re on a huge ranch somewhere, I just want them to steward their resources well.
I want them to steward their time well, their finances and the earth. And I feel like homesteading is a way for them to learn those things and it’s transferrable to anything.

Anna Sakawsky:
Yeah, for sure. Lots of transferable skills. If there’s one thing that you hope people listening or who read your article take away from it, what would that be?

Jessica Spiers:
It would be that you don’t have to be writing it all. We talked about that in the beginning of this, that if your heart is towards stewardship and you’re feeling this call to want to investigate homesteading more or you’re already in it, just remember that it isn’t about having to do it all. None of us are going to be growing at all ourselves or doing everything from scratch. It’s great in theory to be 100% self-sufficient, but it’s not possible, right? We live in communities, we live in a society that has expectations and rules and things that we have to do. And so we’re all just trying to do our best. And I say this all the time, I even have a preservation challenge centered around that every bit counts, every bit of your effort matters. And for every task that you could try to do yourself and produce yourself instead of consuming what someone else made that helps your budget a little bit and is one step better in stewarding the earth a little better and will teach your kids one more skill or is one more opportunity for them to learn hard work.
And so just because you can’t do it all doesn’t mean you’re like, “Oh, it’s not worth doing.” I mean, it could just be baking your bread and that’s it. And that’s that time during the week that you make one loaf of bread on the weekends together with the kids and it feels great to produce this. I’m showing my kids that they can produce it themselves and not have to depend on other people for it. And that’s great. It’s one thing and it all adds up and then next week focus on another thing. Yeah.

Anna Sakawsky:
Awesome. Well, Jessica, thank you so much for joining me today and for sharing your wisdom with us. We’ll be sure to link to your Instagram and to your YouTube channel and everything in the show notes below. Again, I saw you just recently started posting some videos on this topic too where you walk people through these different principles and how to apply them. So for anybody who wants to learn more, you can check that out. Jessica, you’re online at Three Rivers Homestead everywhere, right? So if anybody’s searching, I know I’ve been following you for a number of years now and I’m always inspired by what you’re doing and just teaching through your YouTube channel and through your Instagram stories. So whether it’s your pantry challenge or the Every Bit Counts Challenge or just your musings on life in the world and how to be good stewards of our family and our resources.
I always come away feeling like the way that you approach homesetting and the things that you share are both meaningful and achievable to the average person. So thank you for that and for always keeping it real and authentic.

Jessica Spiers:
Well, thank

Anna Sakawsky:
You. And I think your food looks great, by the way. I’d come for dinner any day at your place.

Jessica Spiers:
Thank you. Thank you for the kind words and for the opportunity to be here. This was fun. I love to talk about this. I love to encourage people in this, so thank you.

Anna Sakawsky:
Awesome. Well, for those of you listening, if you enjoyed this conversation, be sure to check out Jessica’s article, The Return of Home Economics: Why Homesteading is the New Home Act in the latest issue of Homestead Living Magazine. If you’re already a subscriber, your issue should have arrived already. And if not, we would love to invite you to subscribe so you never miss an issue. You can learn more at homesteadliving.com/subscribe. And also, if you haven’t done so yet, please hit the subscribe button and leave a review. It really does help us grow so we can reach more people who could benefit from these types of conversations. And on that note, if you do know someone who could benefit from this episode, please share it with them because I know that there are so many people right now who are looking for ways to stretch their money and I think this conversation is a great place to start.
So Jessica, thanks again for being here. Thank you. And to everyone listening, until next time, keep learning, growing and building what matters and we will see you all back here next time on The Coop.

Jacob Lauser:

Well, this is actually shocking. A lot of people don’t realize this. Technically, gardening is illegal in the United States. I try to act as a facilitator. So somebody comes to me with a challenge, I’m not just saying, no, no, no. I’m saying, here’s how you can get there legally. Here’s what you need to think about as you do this so you can protect yourself or improve your benefits, make sure you’re in compliance with the law. The rules usually exist because somebody did something stupid and somebody got hurt. Or there was a big loss of money. I want to tell people, a big benefit for complying with all these rules, even if you don’t agree with them, is that it opens doors.

Anna Sakawsky:

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You can head to azurestandard.com right now to get started. Again, that’s azurestandard.com. Well, hello everyone and welcome to episode number 20 of The Coop. I’m your host, Anna Sokowski, editor-in-chief of Homestead Living Magazine. And just before we begin today, I have to just put out a little disclaimer. I have been a little bit sick this week, so if you’re listening and thinking she sounds a little bit different, or if you’re watching me on YouTube and saying, “Something looks a little off. She doesn’t look so hot.” We’re just actually getting ready. We’re going away on Saturday. My family is all going on a trip to Mexico, which is a big deal. My dad is retiring after 50 years of work in the trucking industry this week, and we are going on a celebratory trip to Mexico, which sounds fantastic, but you know if you are a homesteader, even if you’re not a homesteader, if you got kids, if you got a job, all the things and in modern life, it can be hard to get away even for just a week.

You got to get ahead on work and you got to make sure everything is buttoned up before you go. But if you homestead, it can be even harder to get away. And we’re lucky that it is at the time of recording late March. So we don’t have gardens that need to be taken care of. We do have some seedlings, but we’ve gone a little … We scaled that back a bit this year. But between that and we’ve got a sick chicken that we’ve been dealing with and there’s all these extra things that factor into the equation when you’re homestaying too. So all that to say that it’s always a little bit of a pressure cooker the week before we try to go away anywhere. And so this is just kind of a natural symptom of that. My kids got sick too. It’s spring break. It happens.

But so just so you know, if you’re thinking, “Oh, she sounds a little under the weather, it’s because I am.” But all that aside, that is not what we’re actually talking about today. Today, we are talking about something that every homesteader think needs to know. And that is the legal side of this lifestyle. And that maybe sounds like boring at first, but actually I think it’s really interesting when you start getting into it. And it’s really important that I think everybody who wants to homestead in any capacity at least has a general idea of the types of legal issues that they may face at some point or considerations that they should make because it’s better to be informed, make an informed decision that ignorance is no excuse kind of thing. So we need to at least have that knowledge of what we should know, what kind of legal issues may present themselves in different situations as a homesteader, whether it’s buying raw land or building or trying to sell goods that we produce or whatever it is.

There are legal regulations around certain things that we just need to be aware of. And so our guest today is Jacob Lauser. So he’s a lawyer turned homesteader and a regular contributor to Homestead Living Magazine and the founder of homesteaders.legal. So Jacob specializes in helping homesteaders navigate everything from land and water rights, zoning, livestock regulations, cottage food laws, bartering and business considerations. And I’m probably a lot more that I’m forgetting right now or that I can’t think of off the top of my head, but he lives in North Idaho with his wife Wendy and their five kids and brings a unique perspective on combining legal expertise with real life homesteading experience. So today we’re going to cover some of the legal issues you may come up against throughout your homesteading journey, what you need to consider before buying land, keeping animals, growing food, building infrastructure, or selling goods from your property.

So whether you’re just getting started or looking to expand your homestead, Jacob’s insights, I think will really help you to stay on the right side of the law, hopefully, while enjoying the freedom of homesteading. So I’ve already learned a ton from Jacob’s articles that he’s written. I’m excited to finally have him on the show today because it’s very rare actually that you find someone who is equally well versed in both homesteading and the law. So I am excited to pick his brain a bit for my own sake too, because my husband and I have definitely come up against some legal issues already in our journey, mostly with building codes and zoning laws, nothing major, but I know what a pain they can be when they present themselves. And we want to hopefully save you that headache and that heartache by answering some of your legal questions today.

So with that, I am pleased to welcome Jacob Lauser to the show.

Jacob Lauser:

Good morning, Anna. How are you today?

Anna Sakawsky:

I am. I’m good. I’ve explained to our listeners, I’m going to kind of rally through this, but I’m excited for this conversation. So I’m feeling a little pumped right now. So before we get into it, I know you have something really important that you like to include in every article and that you probably want to include at the beginning of this conversation. So before we start diving into all of the topics we’re going to cover, can you share with us what that is?

Jacob Lauser:

Absolutely. I mean, I think anybody that ever watches an attorney commercial, here’s the fast speech at the end with the legal disclaimers. And unfortunately, that’s the reality of our world today. I have to tell everybody that the information that I’m giving today is for education and entertainment purposes only. I’m happy to answer questions and point people in the right direction, but believe it or not, the legal profession is one of the most heavily regulated industries out there. So there are literally rules of ethics and practice that I have to follow, and they actually detail things like giving out free advice and all that sort of stuff. So not to be the wet blanket, but I have to say that education and entertainment purposes only, nothing that I say today should be relied on without consulting with an experienced attorney in your particular state or country, as the case may be, and that answering your questions does not create an attorney-client relationship with us.

So I just have to say that. But if you have any follow-up questions about anything that we talk with today, speak with a knowledgeable attorney in your area. But the information that I provide and the articles that I’ve written and the questions and answers I’m going to provide today are really for education purposes to teach people how to think about legal challenges and questions because you said it earlier, ignorance of the law is no excuse, but if you don’t even know things are out there, you don’t even know where to look, you might step in bear traps as I call them. So this is intended to have that conversation to get people thinking that there’s probably some legal implications here you got to think about, and that’s just the first step. But now that we’ve gotten that out of the way, happy to talk more.

Awesome.

Anna Sakawsky:

Well, I appreciate the disclaimer. It’s funny because I remember the first time you sent one in with one of your articles and I was like, oh, we don’t usually add these. Sometimes we do if it’s like an herbal thing or somebody recommending something for medicinal purposes or whatever, we tend to include some disclaimers here and there when needed. But we don’t typically do that, but I thought, well, this is very fitting, just the fact that you’re a lawyer to include that. But I really do appreciate the, not advice, but the free information that you share with everybody because it is hard to find, like you say, if you don’t even know it exists, you don’t even know where to start looking. You don’t even know that you are in breach of something, right? And it can be really hard, especially for homesteaders because it’s such a niche topic as well, right?

And there’s so many different areas of home setting that could have legal ramifications if we’re not careful. So having just kind of, like I say, a broad view of what those areas are and just trying to avoid those bear traps. I had mentioned before we hopped on to record that there’s all of the issues that we’re going to talk about today, we could go into a lot deeper. And I would love to have you back to talk about those things in more depth, but for our listeners too, if you’re thinking, “Oh, I wish you would have asked that or it would have been…” We’re going to kind of give a broad overview of all these areas today and touch on all of them. And then hopefully if you have questions actually after listening, leave a comment right below the video and let us know and then maybe we’ll have Jacob back on to talk about some of the issues in more depth.

But we’ll start off. I just want to start off by getting your background a little bit. So tell us a little bit about your legal background and how it has influenced you as a homesteader.

Jacob Lauser:

I like to tell people I’ve been homesteading for 40 years. I’m not that old, but well, I’m over 40, but I’m not a born farmer, but I grew up spending a lot of time on my grandmother’s farm in Southwest Virginia and really seeing how people were working the land and how things were changing over time. And later on, when I became an adult, I went to law school, I always had these things bumming around in the back of my mind. I just kind of assumed, “Well, doesn’t everybody garden? Doesn’t everybody can their own food? Doesn’t everybody know about these things?” And I realized very quickly that many people had no idea. I mean, it makes sense. After World War II, people gravitated towards cities and jobs and work and a lot of the rural lifestyle that our country had been marked by for centuries kind of went further and further by the wayside.

And I found out that I was unusual because I had picked up some of those things from my grandparents and great grandparents and retained them and was still doing them. And so fast forward after law school, I went to law school in Southwest Virginia, Appalachian School of Law, and it’s very rural and a lot of the people who go to that school are from the Appalachian region and they’re very like- minded, very self-sufficient, independently minded folks. And so they too had a lot of this background that I did. But when I got out into the world and I started practicing law, people would come to me and ask me questions every now and then because they knew I had interests in agriculture or business, small business cottage industry type stuff. And I realized I have something unique here and maybe I could benefit people with that, but it really wasn’t until COVID came and everybody started saying, “We have to control our supply chains and we need eggs and toilet paper and all the things that you can get.

” And it really started to shift where the homesteading movement, which had been sort of simmering in the background, really came to the forefront and people started asking me questions and it was like, “Hey, what do I do about this? And what do I do about that? ” And I thought, “I really should share more of this information with people because again, if you don’t know what you don’t know, as they say, and just wanted to start sharing it because I think I commented about this in one of my articles, everybody wishes we could turn back the clock and pretend like it was 1890 or 1930 or whatever and live a more simpler life.” But the reality is that government regulation has steadily continued all that time and there’s usually something out there that you have to think about. But I don’t see myself as a roadblock or someone holding up a stop sign about what you can and can’t do.

I try to act as a facilitator. So somebody comes to me with a challenge, I’m not just saying, “No, no, no.” I’m saying, “Here’s how you can get there legally. Here’s what you need to think about as you do this so you can protect yourself or improve your benefits, make sure you’re in compliance with the law.” I know Joel Salatin famously champions and his family champion this sort of resistance and unlike Star Trek, resistance of the government is not futile, but at the same time, I like to provide a little bit of a counterbalance to that to say that there are ways to work in the system if you understand it well, and to change it if you need to, changing the system. And I’ve been very encouraged to see the food sovereignty movement, homesteading movements, and really people stepping up and saying, “We want more control, we want more oversight, we want more say in our food systems and how we live.” And that’s very encouraging to me.

So when I picked up some of these skills, I started saying, “I’m going to share this as far as I can so people can hear it, so they know what’s going on and they can be empowered.” There’s the old adage in cliche, knowledge is power. Well, this is just one more example of that.

Anna Sakawsky:

Yeah, absolutely. It’s so funny that you mentioned Joel Salatin because I was thinking that as I was writing up my questions for you. You kind of counterbalance him sometimes, I think, because you’re right, Joel. I find Joel is one that tends to advocate for better to beg forgiveness than ask permission, whereas I feel like maybe you’re a little bit more on the other side of that, is to try to at least do things the right way, the legal way and everything first so that you don’t have to deal with the ramifications of that afterward, right? Because not everybody has the tenacity that Joel has too to fight some of these things.

Jacob Lauser:

Yeah. Joel, well, I know what Joel’s dealing with. I mean, I think he’s there in Virginia and I was educated in Virginia and I spent a lot of time there because family was there. I know what he’s dealing with and I don’t fault Joel at all. I mean, sometimes in certain environments, especially as they change like Virginia is recently, whatever your politics are, there’s a lot of bureaucracy in some of these places that are entrenched. And in the case of Virginia, they’ve been doing it for 500 years. There’s a mechanism there that sometimes needs to be pushed back against very hard, and he’s done that well. I think half the time, just knowing that you’ve got fight in you and you’re not someone who’s going to roll over is very important to dealing with these situations, but so is being as educated as you can about the process beforehand, so you know which fights to pick.

So again, I don’t fault Joel at all. I think he’s great. I’ve met him a couple of times at conferences and obviously read books and listened to his lectures and he’s a real kick in the pants and he’s very knowledgeable and he’s done a lot. And again, I wouldn’t say I’m a counterpoint as much, but more like additional information and

Anna Sakawsky:

Background. A balancing perspective maybe, but even like you say, knowledge is power and understanding the law does help you to fight it too, right? Because then you know what rights you have. And so that’s I think why Joel has been really successful is he is very well versed in his legal rights and how the bureaucracy works, even though he hates it. He actually just wrote, he’s going to be our cover feature story for the … I can’t remember when exactly this podcast will be coming out. I think it might be the beginning of May, so the issue will have already come out, but he’s our cover feature for the May, June issue, and he has written a story called If I Were a Bureaucrat, where he takes an honest look, like not satire, but an honest look, knowing what he does, that if he were in a position of authority, how would he act?

What would his MO be for dealing with the types of issues that he comes up against, against other bureaucrats and that sort of thing. But he definitely knows his stuff and I really, yeah, I respect him a lot. But I do appreciate your kind of little bit more balanced perspective too, but like, “Hey, you know what?

” Because I think everybody for the most part wants to do things the legal way, right? But sometimes they make it hard for us, right? Whoever they are, whoever that bureaucracy … And again, I know just from things that we’ve built and stuff that we’ve done that sometimes you come up against legal issues or red tape that is just really ridiculous, right? But we have wanted … I think if you make it easy enough for people, they want to do things the right way. And so understanding that. But then we’ve also learned things throughout the process that’s like, well, we know what doing it that way is like now and maybe there’s a loophole. So not that we’re then doing anything illegal, but it’s like, and we’ll get into this, but we turned our garage into a rental suite a few years back, which had a whole bunch of issues where we did all the legal way.

It took a lot longer. It cost a lot more money to do it. There was a lot of ridiculous red tape involved. Then when my husband went to build a workshop, he’s like, “I don’t want to do that again.” It’s going to cost like an extra $20,000. This workshop that cost him five grand to build out of scrap materials, but he found out that if we just build it up on skids, so it’s technically a movable structure and everything, then that’s okay because it’s not a permanent structure and all these different things. So we’ve found the legal loophole that’s now saved us a lot of money. But anyway, so all of that to say, I’m interested to know, I mean, you’ve written pretty extensively for homestead living and you’ve obviously dealt with some of these issues in real life and with other people who have.

What legal issues or mistakes do you see most homesteaders running into or making most often?

Jacob Lauser:

All of them? Well, again, the first assumption everybody should have is that it’s regulated. You should just assume that something’s regulated. And the real challenge there is I’ve commented on some of my articles. The rules usually exist because somebody did something stupid and somebody got hurt or there was a big loss of money. I mean, for instance, the molasses flood of New England fame years ago resulted in regulations on how you store liquids in large quantities and urban environments or when you’re dealing with homesteading stuff, a lot of homesteaders want to sell eggs or sell farm products and their grandparents may have done that successfully for 50 years, but usually it’s somebody got poisoned from salmonella or something and then the state had to deal with three deaths and they came up with a quick new regulation to make it look like they’re doing something about it.

And when you go long enough, you get a mishmash of these things piling up and there’s all these regulations that cover literally everything. You give people enough time to think about a problem or their job as a bureaucrat is to create fixes for non-problems and you’re going to get a bunch of stuff out there. So I guess what I tell people is first assume that there’s a regulation about something that you want to do and then the question is finding out what do you do about it? But some of the big ones that I see are homesteaders starting out and they start thinking business, this hobby costs a lot of money. How can I defray some of my costs? How can I turn my passion into a business is actually contributing to my bottom line instead of just being money out the door. And they jump right into selling bread or selling eggs or growing seedlings.

Now that’s a big one. We’ve all got a bunch of seedlings at the end of our season in Red Solo Cups sitting there and we think, “Hey, I could sell these on Facebook Marketplace for five bucks a piece and yeah, that’s fine.” And so those are some of the areas. Others have to do with property rights. Again, we could have hours long conversations on all this, but the top ones I see are business related and tax related having to do with selling things from your farm or doing some sort of business or service. And then the other has to do with land use and zoning.That’s a really big one. You say, “Hey, I want to put a chicken coop in my backyard.” Well, chicken coops are hugely regulated in most environments ostensibly way back from the 60s and forward for quote unquote health and safety reasons.

So most chicken coops, for instance, are banned according to the zoning and the land use or accessory structures. That’s a big one that I see. People want to put in little tool shed or a goat barn or something in their backyard and they don’t realize that those are regulated as well, where they’re located, where they’re situated, how far they are from the house or how far away from the neighbors, whether or not there’s going to be sounds and smells. I mean, there’s all sorts of regulations. So zoning laws and how you’re allowed to use your land, what you’re allowed to put on your land and what that might look like, size, shape, location. And then going down even further, you get into disputes with neighbors. People, we call it NIMBY, not in my backyard. People have these attitudes of, “Well, I want to do whatever I want on my property, but I don’t want that neighbor to be able to have their chickens or have a donkey or that cow is in a fenced dairy and it looks too small.

I’m going to call the animal cruelty people on them.” So there’s all sorts of challenges and anybody who’s homesteaded long enough will have run into something, whether it’s a nasty gram from your neighbor saying they don’t like the noise of your rooster or a letter of enforcement from the county saying, “You don’t have the zoning to do what you want to do there.” And people get surprised and pretty soon they got to spend some money to fix the problem or go talk to a lawyer if it’s bad enough. And so those are sort of the highlights.

Anna Sakawsky:

Okay. Well, let’s start at the beginning then. So if somebody is just starting out, maybe they’re looking at buying some land, what are a few of the key legal considerations they should know before even purchasing land?

Jacob Lauser:

Oh, we could talk for hours just about that. Yeah. I don’t want people to be overwhelmed with what I’m sharing. I equate this sometimes of trying to get people to drink from a fire hose. There’s a lot of information. There’s a lot of considerations. I think most people who first start out, they think, “Oh, I’m going to buy a few acres and start a homestead.” They’ll take a look at some of the books and talk about looking at the land in all different seasons, seeing what the exposure is for growing stuff, what the local micro climate might be to see if that’s acceptable. But some of the other things you need to think about are, what am I allowed to do with this land? One of the first things that I tell people is try to get a hold and see if there’s any limitations or restrictions on the property.

Most people know those as CC&Rs, covenants and restrictions on the property. That could be from a homeowner’s association. And a homeowners association doesn’t have to exist in an urban type of neighborhood. I’ve seen restrictions and HOAs existing for 10 acre ranchettes that have been developed a long time ago that tell you, you can’t have mobile homes on the property or if you build a house that has to go through the architectural committee. So that’s the first thing I do. Personally, when I look at land, first thing I ask the realtor is, “Let me see if there’s any restrictions on this property. And if there are, I want CC&Rs, I want covenants, I want to even see easements.” So CC&Rs are agreements between property owners in the same neighborhood where you can influence what you’re allowed to do by contract law, what you’re allowed to do on your land.

Easements are actually the right of other people to use your land or whatever land it is for whatever purpose it could be. Easements often take the form of access, so they’re allowed to drive across your land to get to theirs. Other people are allowed to access waterways or resources. Sometimes they see shared well agreements or shared road agreements. So you want to take a look at all the easements to make sure you know exactly who’s allowed to use portions of your land and for what. And then before we get down to zoning, I’ll get to that next. Then you’re going to want to see what’s physically happening on the property. A lot of people don’t realize that most properties are bought and sold site unseen, or there’s been a big gap since the owner may have gone out to the property and taken a look at it.

So it’s really important for you to go out and look at these parcels and see does it look like the neighbor is driving across this property? Does it look like somebody has put a fence up that might trespass on the land? Or in some cases, as I’ve seen rural land, some neighbor literally just put a fence up around the property and is trying to claim it for themselves. And you have to know those things because there are many concepts of the law, prescriptive use, adverse possession.

To put it plainly, there are ways that people can steal land. I don’t advocate for that, but there’s ways people can steal land. It goes back to the old days when the government was trying to encourage people to actually physically occupy and settle land. And you had all these developers back yeast, the railroads and things that were buying up all this land on paper and then holding onto it and not allowing people to actually go and settle it and develop it. So the government came up with these ideas of adverse possession that whoever’s willing to go out and physically occupy the land for enough time, pay the taxes on it and actually start it being productive, will get title of the land. Now, that gets abused and people literally try to steal the land. So you got to get out there and see for yourself, how are people actually using this land?

Are there any trespassers or people that are trying to stake a claim for themselves? And then you got to start thinking about, let’s assume everything’s good and clear. It’s a good property. Nobody’s trying to steal it or there’s no problems, there’s no easements over it I have to worry about. Now you have to think about government regulation. What am I actually allowed to do with this land? So the next thing I do when I’m helping anyone to search for a property is I take a look at the title, make sure the title is clear. All the legal procedures have been followed over the years. There’s no errors or problems that have to be fixed. And then I look at the zoning and the government literally zones every single piece of property.

Think of zoning as a regulatory designation that tells you what you’re allowed to do on the property. The further out from urban areas, the further out from cities and towns, the less restrictive property is generally. You might have a designation that is rural residential or unzoned. Unzoned is still technically zoned. It’s just called unzoned. And you look at that and each zoning designation has a section of the code, the ordinance, that lists all the acceptable uses out there that you are allowed to do without special permission from the government. So I work my way down, make sure it’s a clean, good property, make sure that there’s nobody interfering with the potential rights there, and then see what the government lets you do. And let’s say it says rural residential one, and then you go into the ordinance and it says you’re allowed to have one house, one septic, and it will be specific.

It’ll say agricultural activities to include five cows per acre or 40 chickens per acre. Or the best case scenario is, it won’t say anything. It’ll say unrestricted, do whatever you want.

Anna Sakawsky:

So

Jacob Lauser:

As you’re building this picture, obviously this takes hours and days to do some research sometimes unless you can find the information on the internet and most places you can, but you do this research and you start building a picture and then you see, “Okay, here’s the property, here’s the restrictions, if any, here’s what the government will let me do. ” And then you could go down even further and say, “Okay, what’s it say about chicken coops?” If it says anything about chicken coops, it could say something like, “A chicken coop of less than 50 square feet, situated at least 50 feet from dwellings and 10 feet from all surrounding property lines.” So you start drilling down, you get a final picture of what you’re allowed to do and that helps inform your plans and your ideas. You say, “I know what I can do without triggering the government coming and looking and investigating this more.” And as long as I stay within those boundaries, then if they come knocking, I’ll say, “Hey, I looked at this and this and this and look here Sure.

My chicken coop is 50 feet from the house and my property line is over here and my fence is such and such height. It really depends on your location. Every county in the United States is different. Every jurisdiction, Canada has their own rules. So it’s just a matter of investigating them and see how detailed they are and then learning what those are based on what you want to do.

Anna Sakawsky:

Right. And so I mean, outside of, say you’re buying land and you’re asking the realtor to look into some certain things for you, where do you find this information? I know every area is different. What levels of government are regulating these things? Is it a mixture? Is some of it federally regulated? Is some of it state, county? Where are we even starting to find that information?

Jacob Lauser:

Everyone.

Anna Sakawsky:

So every level really kind of has their fingers in this pie.

Jacob Lauser:

It does. It does. There’s another old saying, government will expand to the limits that it can. It will get as big as it’s allowed to get. And in many areas, especially affecting land and land use, the government has stuck its nose where it doesn’t belong, quite honestly. Until a couple of years ago, for instance, we saw a continual expansion of government interference with private property water rights all across the United States, because what was happening consistently for the last 30 years, but especially during the Obama administration, was they changed the definition of something called waters of the United States. And the EPA and some other regulatory agencies basically got together and colluded to this idea that if we can’t directly go after property, what we can do is we can change the definitions, as they often do, change the definition of something that would naturally expand our power.

And they changed the definitions of a statutory term called the waters of the United States, which gave them power and control from what it originally was, which was the main waterways in the United States, Mississippi River, Columbia River, all those quote unquote navigable waterways. Anywhere that you could drive a boat was considered a public conveyance or a highway in the old days. And so they belonged to the United States. But what was happening under these environmental regulations by expanding what qualified as the waters of the United States, they were able to reach in and control with government regulations intended for large waterways, mud puddles on private property. And it actually, the seminal case, I forget the case number, but it involved a homeowner up here in North Idaho on, I think it was Priest Lake, was trying to build a lakeside home. And they went in and the EPA and the federal government actually told them, “We have control of the water, the swampy water on your property so you’re not allowed to build there.” So I guess what I’m saying, thankfully they won that after a 10 year court battle or something, and the definition was slapped back to navigable waterways where you could actually do a boat.

But that’s an example of, well, I would say government overreach, but government expansion into every area that can affect even things like a mud puddle that shows up on your property for three months a year in the summer. So you have to be aware of those things and those trends. Now, on the day-to-day basis, let’s assume you don’t have something like that that’s affecting your land. On a day-to-day basis, you should assume that your state has some sort of regulations, your county has some sort of regulations and your locality or your city or your town may have regulations, may or may not, depends on how big you are. But those are the places to look because assuming there’s no big federal thing that has to do with water, usually water, water and environmental rules at the federal level. And then state, the state may also have water and environmental rules like California’s infamous for this.

They find farmers millions of dollars for tilling too deeply on their wheat fields. So you have to think about that. Are there any state level environmental regulations and things that could interfere with my use of the land? And then you get down to the county level. County is going to be more concerned about building codes, zoning, because they make money off it. I mean, most counties regulate those things because they get fees for development and that funds their budget. So there’s going to be something in the way of zoning, planning and zoning ordinances and construction standards. And then your local municipality may be divided on that as well. So sometimes you have counties that are the main drivers of all this. Others are large cities, so they kind of take the place of the county, but those are the big factors, at least in the United States, federal, state, county, local.

And then depending on what you’re doing, there might be a state agency that handles these things like the Department of Agriculture or the Department of Water. In Idaho, we have the Idaho Department of Water Resources, for instance. You have to think about them. So those are sort of the multi-tiered levels of government interference.

Anna Sakawsky:

Right. Okay. And so if somebody is wanting to find out what their local regulations are and who controls what, do you just recommend just start with a Google search, just start asking around, should you get a lawyer? How do you start down this road to find out exactly what- Who controls what on your land and what you can do? Yeah.

Jacob Lauser:

I hope people never have to hire an attorney for these things. That sounds sort of self-defeating. I hate how legalistic and difficult managing these things and navigating these things has become for normal people because you shouldn’t have to hire a lawyer to navigate all these things. Sometimes you have to because of how complicated it is and what you’re doing. Most of the time I would tell people … I used to tell people go to Google. The problem with Google is, if you go to Google, first thing you have to do is you have to know what to ask. So it’s easy for me to go to Google and say, “Show me the planning ordinance for Kootenai County, and that’ll give me a quick link to their website, or I might have it bookmarked, and then I know how to dig through and look for what I need to look for.

” But if people don’t know what to ask Google, and what’s happening these days is it’s kicking in its AI features to try to fill in what it thinks you want,

And it may point you in the wrong direction because there’s an AI element of that now, which is filling in things, and it might point you in the wrong direction than if you, in the old days when you knew the exact questions to get, and Google would only give you whatever results it had. So I would say this, first things first, sit down, write down what you’re trying to do, what you want to do, and then sort of brainstorm on what you think it might involve. Is it going to involve water rights? Is it going to involve land rights? Is it going to involve business regulations? Is it going to involve property disputes, contracts? Think about that level and try to separate it into categories and then break down what you’re trying to do. So if you think it’s going to be related to business and taxation, a question you might ask Google is, are there any business and tax regulations for Smith County or whatever?

And the goal of that is just to see what pops up because the first thing you should find in the results is a link to Smith County Planning and Zoning Ordinances. And then you can follow that and know that that information is correct because it’s coming right from the municipality or the county. So don’t go off on these rabbit trails or get into ChatGPT and put a bunch of stuff and expect it to point you right in the right direction. What you need to do is look for information directly from the sources. If you find an advisory circular from the Department of Agriculture on Cottage Foods, that’s going to be something you can rely on, not an answer from ChatGPT. If you have a planning and zoning question about Smith County, you’re going to get that from Smith County. And what it should eventually lead you to is people to talk to.

So you’re not going to be able to do all this online. You’re eventually going to hit a wall. Even I have to pick up the phone and call the planning and zoning officer and say, “Hey, we got this situation, here’s the zoning on it. I want to know what we can do with X, Y, and Z. Can you give me some information?” I know some people say don’t talk to officials like that because it can put you on their radar. I have found that you don’t have to always disclose specific information as long as you have things like zoning or size of your property or something. You say, “Hey, I’ve got a hypothetical for you. I own a

Anna Sakawsky:

Five-” I was asking for a friend.

Jacob Lauser:

Yeah. I have a hypothetical question. I have a five acre parcel in this zoning and I want to put in 50 chickens. Is that something I’m allowed to do? And if not, what are the regulations? And they’ll send you an email with the ordinance numbers and you can go read those yourself. So there’s a lot of resources. Most of the available material is linked online directly to the regulators, the state agencies, the regulators, the municipalities, the cities, and you can read all this stuff yourself because that’s part of our open society. Everybody has to be allowed to know what the rules say. And if you ask, they’re supposed to send you to the rules so that you can read them yourself. So it can start with a Google search. Of course, talking with other people in your area, that’s a great thing. If I’m going to look at some area, I’ll get on Facebook and see if there’s a Facebook homesteaders group or something for that area and, “Hey, what do you guys know about this?

” And that’s a good resource too, but does that answer your question?

Anna Sakawsky:

Yeah, for sure. I’m one of those people that I’m like, “I don’t even know where to start.” I’m so lucky that I have a husband that has navigated a lot of that type of stuff for me. I am like, man, it’s like paperwork and anything to do with any legalese is just like I tucktail and run the other way. It’s just not my forte. And I don’t want to generalize, but I feel like there’s a lot of people that are maybe in the homestead or camp that are like that. We want to just kind of be free to just do what we want to do. We don’t want to have to sit down and go through all the research and the paperwork. And a lot of times though it is just knowing like, I don’t even know where to start. Where do I start even looking for that?

So just kind of knowing how you would maybe search or how you would narrow it down that like, “Hey, these are the different areas that I think I might come up against, legal challenges or issues or whatever.” And then you can start looking up specifics and then hopefully that leads you to the right person where you can actually ask some questions then, right?

Jacob Lauser:

Yeah. And I want to clarify too, I mean, let’s be absolutely realistic. This information is for people who want to be absolutely legal from the very beginning so that they never have a problem. And that’s my preference because I’m a lawyer and I know how messy things can get, but in reality, it’s almost like speeding on the highway. I do not advocate speeding. I think everybody should follow the rules, but the reality in function is that most people speed all the time, but because they do it in such a way that’s not necessarily terribly risky, like if you’re driving down the freeway in California, everybody’s going 85 miles an hour and the rules being applied are really going to go after those people that are driving 120 miles an hour. They’re going to pull those people over. But if you’re running in the pack and everybody’s going the same speed, you kind of blend in.

And there’s this old saying, unless you’re speeding more than … Well, most people know this, unless you’re speeding more than 10 miles an hour over the speed limit, chances are the police aren’t going to pull you over unless they’re looking to fill a quota or something. So you know that there’s certain things that if you’re doing are probably going to fly under the radar and you’re not going to get an enforcement. So if you have chickens in your backyard and they’re not specifically banned and you don’t have a rooster, they may violate some sort of rule out there, but 15 other people in your area are doing it. Chances of you getting an enforcement action are probably much lower. And again, I’m not advocating this, but when you do that sort of low level activity, you’re probably going to blend in and not have issues.

And many people do that. It’s when they expand or try to do more than what they’re trying to go faster than everyone else around them, that they get the regulators attention and they come after them. So I don’t want people to be ignorant. I’m not advocating that you break the law intentionally and pursue this better to ask forgiveness method, but at the same time, be aware of these things and go looking for the rules. Assume that there are rules and go looking for them. That’s really what I’m advocating.

Anna Sakawsky:

And again, you got to know the rules before you break them, right? Yeah. It must be an intentional decision.

Jacob Lauser:

Could be pretty bad. So looking for those sort of things, Google’s a good start, reading books, talking to other people that are in the space, and assuming that there’s something out there you have to be aware of, and there’s lots of stuff online that you can access to research these things,

Anna Sakawsky:

And

Jacob Lauser:

A good place is the agencies that regulate. There’s also, for homesteaders specifically, there’s a lot of information from universities that like safe canning approaches or cottage food things. Universities have a lot of students that have to do projects and they do research for professors and they put together these circulars and advisory opinions and great little PDF guides on this stuff all the time and they answer a lot of these questions, how to start a small business, how to start a small agricultural business or farm business.

Anna Sakawsky:

Those are the extension offices and stuff like that, right?

Jacob Lauser:

Yeah. So just go looking on the internet, reading, talking with people, making sure you’re not sucked down an AI rabbit hole that doesn’t have the right information and do your research.

Anna Sakawsky:

So high level, because I do want to get into a few specific topics, but just high level, you did mention zoning and it’s always going to differ, like you mentioned like rural, residential and agricultural, no restrictions versus restrictions on there. It’s going to be different for everybody, but high level, agricultural, recreational, and residential zoning. And I don’t know if there’s other ones that I’m missing that are like the kind of the higher level ones, but what’s the difference between those three in terms of just general usage of that type of land and what you can do on those?

Jacob Lauser:

So agricultural, residential and which?

Anna Sakawsky:

And recreational. This is actually a question that we had from, we had asked some of our readers ahead of time if they had questions and that was actually one that came in was, can you explain the difference between those three types of zoning?

Jacob Lauser:

Well, I’d have to look at the specific state and the specific county to tell exactly what the differences are. Generally though, when you’re dealing with recreational land, a lot of land, a lot of very rural land, very rural land out in the sticks two hours from any town is zoned recreational because it denotes sort of undevelopable wildland sort of use. There is a distinction, again, I’d have to look at the specific rules, but most land that I see being sold as recreational is being sold very, very cheaply. And the reason is there isn’t a lot of infrastructure available and there may be restrictions on the ability to develop anything substantial. Now, conversely, there may be absolutely no restrictions on that land and it’s just called recreational because it’s a marketing ploy. It’s unrestricted rural land with absolutely no services and you’re on your own, upper peninsula of Michigan or something like that.

So that’s what I often see. Recreational is more of a marketing designation than a zoning designation, but if there is a designation for recreational, it’s probably because the jurisdiction doesn’t want people developing it. They just want them to use it as temporary occasional use for hunting or wintertime fishing or something like that.

Agricultural land usually has some sort of history or connection or suitability for, as you guess, agriculture. This is a sort of land that is often less restricted, but may have some limited uses. For instance, I lived for several years in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, and there’s a lot of land out there that has specific protective zoning for agriculture that prevents it from being developed or used in some other way, because there’s a lot of development pressure on those properties. So they put them into trusts or protective designations to keep housing developments from being put in and enables them to be continued used for agriculture. As a general designation, agriculture is sort of the catchall, rural agricultural is sort of the catchall for rural land. And quite honestly, if I’m looking at land and I see an agricultural designation of any type, I think, “Oh, that’s great. That’s going to be the least restrictive.

That’s going to allow me to do the most of what I want with my land, tilling, plowing, planting, moving dirt around, building agricultural sheds and greenhouses and chicken coops and chicken buildings.” I mean, that’s sort of the best approach is if I can get a rural piece that’s agriculturally zoned, that’s probably going to be what allows me to do the absolute most with my property in the United States at least.

Anna Sakawsky:

Right. Okay.

Jacob Lauser:

And then what was the third?

Anna Sakawsky:

And then just residential. I mean, that’s pretty self explanatory, but I guess that varies a lot too. You could be in a residential zone area where you can have a chicken coop or in a garden or you could be in an HOA where you can’t or, right? Again,

Jacob Lauser:

It depends on how far away from a city it is. And I don’t mean a city city. I mean, like if you have a town with a town core, you’re going to have commercial and maybe business and maybe industrial, and then your residential is going to start showing up further out from the center. And the further you get from the main center of the city, the lesser restrictions. So you’re going to have high density residential. I don’t know anybody else who played Sim City when they were growing up, but you have these high density residential, like two or three story places or duplexes or triplexes or apartment buildings, and then you go further out and you have a less dense. So it could be like residential one, residential two, residential three, but residential designations can actually have different land uses as well. But what you’re going to look for, I think rural residential is probably the best sort of designation because it’s still residential and it may restrict you from doing certain business or agricultural things, but it’s going to be geared toward the least restrictive residential use.

It might allow you to have two or three houses on the same property depending on the acreage or the size. It may allow limited agricultural activities like I see in some rural residential designations. But yeah, those are the main differences

Anna Sakawsky:

Is

Jacob Lauser:

What kind of density and development do they allow and is there some sort of mix of business and agriculture allowed with agricultural zoning being the least restrictive usually? Right.

Anna Sakawsky:

Well, and I don’t know how it is in the states, but like because I’m in Canada for anybody who’s listening doesn’t know that. And so we’re zoned rural residential. We are actually like three properties away from the city limits and we’re in a really weird kind of quagmire of an area where we’re at the end of a no through road and onto a cul-de-sac and we’re kind of suburban in the front and then we back onto a green belt and we’re on pretty four residentially zoned land. We are pretty unrestricted because the city doesn’t come past that property line and the regional district where we live doesn’t come down the city road to ever get to us. We get pretty much left alone down here, which is nice. Now, if we get snowed in or something like that, nobody comes to our rescue either, but I’d rather have it this way.

That being said, we’ve looked at, there are benefits to getting in Canada we call it, we have ALR land, so the agricultural land reserve, but because you can get all sorts of tax breaks and all that. So our property taxes are less than if we were in the city proper, for example. So that’s nice, but we’re still residentially zoned, but if we were on ALR land, there’s a lot more tax breaks, but there are certain stipulations that come with that here where you actually have to produce a certain amount of food to sell. There’s certain agriculture activities that you need to be maintaining on that property in order to basically to be on that property. So we’ve thought about that before too for the benefits, but then I’m like, is that what we want to do? Are we doing this to sell to the public?

If you’re just homesetting for yourself and you’re not planning on doing any of that, then that might be something that you need to consider as well, is are there stipulations where you’re actually having to produce a certain amount on agricultural land, that sort of thing? Yeah. Interesting. So again, but it comes down to like, again, just really looking at getting really granular and you have to look at your specific area and zoning. And so another thing, aside from kind of the land and that sort of thing is livestock, which we’ve brought up before. So what are, again, this is going to vary depending on your zoning and where you are and I get all that, but what are some of the basics of livestock liability and keeping farm animals on property? Like what should people just be aware of from a legal standpoint? I know you’ve written about this before.

Jacob Lauser:

Yeah. I was going to say, that was my last article. I think we changed the title, but excuse me, ma’am, is this your goat? Yeah. Again, these are things that I can talk about for hours and I’ve written extensively on. The 60,000 foot view is people should know that there is potential liability. Anything you own, anything, whether it’s your car or your goat or your cow or your kids, anything that’s associated with you that leaves your property and does something to somebody else’s property could carry liability. It’s why we have liability insurance for vehicles. We’re out and about driving around, accidents happen, and you have to have coverage for that, at least by law in the United States, but it’s the same thing for things on our properties, whether it’s a water tank that you have on your property that could break and flood the neighbor’s yard or an animal, a large animal or cattle.

Cattle are infamous for breaking down their fences and wandering onto other people’s yards. There’s that famous scene in of Green Gables where the cow gets out and goes next door and eats all the neighbor’s flowers. In today’s environment, people are especially lawsuit happy and even if they don’t sue you, they’re going to make a lot of legal demands that’s going to cause problems. So when you’re talking about animals, I think people need to understand, again, first there is potential liability. Your animals do any sort of damage anywhere, you could be held legally liable for it. Now, we don’t have escaped cow insurance. I mean, there actually is escaped cow insurance, but it’s obscure on a commercial level. I won’t even go into it, but normal people aren’t going to go looking for escaped cow insurance to protect against damage that their cattle caused. But if they break down a fence, for instance, and they get out on the road and somebody crashes into the cow in the middle of the night and it causes medical injuries, those people could come back after you as the owner of the cow and sue you for their medical injuries.

So when you’re making the decision to have animals, whether it’s a chicken or a thousand pound cow or bigger, you have to understand you have an obligation to keep your animals under control in a safe environment where they’re not going to get out and damage other people’s property or potentially hurt them. And you need to follow all those procedures so that God forbid something does happen, you can say, “All right, well, the cow got out, but I built a fence in accordance with the legal standards for fence building.” And I ensured that the cow was behind two different levels of fence and we check the cow once a day and make sure that it’s in the pasture and we have liability insurance for our property that may cover this. So as long as you’re following those sort of best practices and making sure that you’re trying to be responsible, you recognize that you may have liability when you start getting these animals, before you start getting these animals, you’re building the proper containment structures and fences and pens and everything that you need and you’re being responsible.

There’s a standard in the law called the reasonably prudent person and RPP, but the reasonably prudent person is just a fancy word for common sense.

Are you thinking through what problems could arise before you act? And as long as you’re using common sense and saying, “Hey, I got an animal that is stubborn and wants to get out all the time, I’m going to make sure that it’s not going to get out if it doesn’t have to. ” And that applies to animals that can really hurt people, like even dogs, there’s a lot of vicious dog laws out there. So those rules change from place to place. But yeah, there’s a lot of things to consider, but the main one is if it’s yours, you could be responsible for what happens. So use your common sense when you think about what you’re doing.

Anna Sakawsky:

Yeah. It reminds me of there was a case in BC where I live a few years back and there was a farm that was adjacent to a golf course and they had had repeated reports of their pigs getting out and they had not taken it seriously and had not done enough to kind of keep their pigs in. And they got out and they like tore up the whole golf course, right? So caused hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of damage and they were on the hook for that, right? Especially because they had had these issues before and had not taken the proper steps to actually contain the pigs. So really important. And like you say, even chickens, so it’s funny because you bring up the roosters. So we have backyard lag hens. We’re only on a quarter acre, we’re rural residential, but even if we were in the township here, they have changed the laws over the past few years where you can have, I can’t remember how many it is, but you can have some backyard laying hens.

No roosters, of course. No roosters if you’re on, but even rural, if you’re on under an acre, you’re not supposed to have roosters because you’re technically too close to your neighbors and obviously roosters are noisy. Well, we hatched some chicks last year. Of course, when you had your own chicks, you can’t control the outcome there. So we ended up with two roosters, two roosters. And it’s funny because we talk to all our neighbors and we have a really good relationship and not that this will always save you, but I think there’s something to be said about making sure that you do have a good relationship with your neighbors or people who live nearby as best as you can because then sometimes you can get maybe away with things or they’re not going to necessarily go and report you if you have a good relationship with them.

So when these roosters started growing, we gave everybody some eggs. We’re like, sorry and thanks for putting up with them. And we got rid of a rooster before and they were like, all the neighbors were like, “Oh no, we really enjoyed him, so don’t worry about it. ” And so when we ended up with these ones, we’re like, “Okay.” So one of them though turned out to be quite aggressive and he was kind of coming at the kids first and then he was coming at me and I’m like, obviously we have to deal with this chicken, with this rooster, but we hadn’t yet. And I said to my husband even like, “We have to deal with this because if this rooster gets out and goes after…” We got a couple neighbors with like little wiener dogs. If he attacks one of these little dogs, we could be on the hook for that too.

So even animals that you might not think of as being an issue, you still need to consider what-

Jacob Lauser:

Well, think about this. You get an aggressive rooster with some spurs on it, it can kill a wiener dog

Anna Sakawsky:

And

Jacob Lauser:

People don’t realize this. We used to breed dachshunds, but the average pure bread dychen is a $3,500 dog. So right there, that’s a big chunk. Your rooster gets out, kills the neighbor’s dog and you’re on the hook for $3,500 plus fees. And yeah,

Anna Sakawsky:

People

Jacob Lauser:

Don’t think about these things and it’s unfortunate that you have to, in the old days, dozen eggs and some jars of jam, we give jam away to the neighbors to keep them happy. All right.

Anna Sakawsky:

Well, we’re going to talk about that in just a second, sharing food and selling food. I do want to touch on gardening though too. So livestock is almost a little bit more cut and dry usually, I think, but as far as like gardening and growing food, especially if you’re dealing with something like an HOA, they can be quite restrictive. What kind of ordinances in general are there about like say growing food on a residential property? We have ours, our garden is all in our front yard because that’s where the sun hits and we can do that. We don’t have any restrictions about that sort of thing, but what should people maybe be aware of before just going and planting out a food forest or a garden or whatever or what kind of legal issues could they come up against?

Jacob Lauser:

Well, this is actually shocking. A lot of people don’t realize this.

Anna Sakawsky:

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Jacob Lauser:

Technically, and I say technically, this is one of the videos I have on my YouTube channel, but technically gardening is illegal in the United States. People don’t realize that. There was actually a US Supreme Court case, Wickered v. Filburn, it was decided in 1942, but the incident happened years before. And it was a wheat farmer who was just growing wheat for his own family use. And the US Supreme Court ruled that when people grow food for themselves, instead of purchasing it from farmers, it can actually have an impact on the stream. We call it the stream of commerce. It can have an impact on the economy. When people are making things for themselves, they’re not participating in the economy, therefore they’re impacting the economy and the government has the right to regulate that. And in the case of that farmer in 1942, the government said, “We can’t allow wheat farmers to just … We can’t allow everybody to just start growing their own food or they won’t be participating in the markets and the stock market will crash and the price of food will fluctuate.” So this ruling came out in 1942, which obviously was right in the middle of World War II.

And the government said, “Okay, now that we’ve got that settled and we have the power to do whatever we want and you guys aren’t even allowed to grow your own food, go grow your own food because we need food for the war.” And so they started the victory garden program. And what happened was there were so many shortages, even in England for like 20 years after World War II, there were so many food shortages while Europe was crawling out of the damage that the US government said, “We’re going to encourage people to grow their own food and gardens, but remember we could take it away at any time. So go grow your own food, but remember, we’re still the ones that have the power.” So this home gardening movement has been going strong since 1940s. People were growing a lot of their own food prior to that, but especially since the 1940s.

And the gardening industry sprouted up with seeds and everything that we buy for our gardens these days, even just go look at the displays at Lowe’s and Home Depot. So technically gardening’s illegal in the United States. So

People need to remember that. Technically gardening is illegal. Now, they haven’t enforced it in a long time and they probably never will because there simply aren’t enough people out there doing this consistently that it really does impact global trade anymore. So they’ll probably never show up and take your food away, but they could. So that’s one thing. As far as the local considerations, you want to go out, like you said, and start a food forest in your front yard. If you own your property and you’re not dealing with a landlord, most places will say, do whatever you want. But again, going and looking at the ordinances for your town and your county and seeing what am I allowed to put and where. I have seen regulations that say you’re not allowed to put food gardens in the front yard, that they have to be in the backyard or out of sight.

There’s a lot of HOAs that have CC&Rs and bylaws that say you can’t do anything in the front or you can’t grow food and sell it in a roadside stand or that sort of thing. So for most people, if you’re just growing vegetables and things in your backyard, out of sight, out of mind, you’re probably fine. But there could be rules, local rules that talk about that and then CC&Rs that tell you you’re not allowed to do it in your front yard where everybody can see it. However, I’m a big proponent for food sovereignty.That’s a passionate issue. I think everybody should be able to grow as much food as they want and that these restrictions I contend violate some fundamental rights. Now, we’re still dealing with Wicker v. Filburn and that reality, but my challenge is if you don’t have CC&Rs and bylaws, most of the rules that may restrict your ability to grow food might conflict with state laws that talk about the right to grow food or agriculture.

It’s sometimes in the state constitutions. It’s sometimes a new food sovereignty rule, like you saw, I think in Maine last year, a couple of years ago. We hold the right to grow food in your backyard as being paramount so everyone’s allowed to do it. They may overrule those statutes or those local rules. So that’s one area I encourage people to push the boundaries, planting some squash in your front yard and seeing what happens because you have a good legal basis to go and say, “Your rules violate the food sovereignty rule that came into the state constitution last year so I don’t have to listen to you. ” So again, there’s areas where the government might be trying to regulate and as long as you’re aware of what’s going on and you push back knowing what the rules say, that’s going to be most important. But I think what’s this guy, James Prigioni over in New Jersey has a tomato growing food forest that he puts on all the time.

And I think he’s just on a small little lot and there’s a couple other growers I’ve seen that have these front yard food forests and I think it’s great. I think it’s far better to have a food forest in your front yard than a nice lawn.

Anna Sakawsky:

Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, and this is my other question is like, do you have tips for homesteaders that are navigating HOAs, especially when they conflict with local or state laws? So we had a reader question actually saying HOAs usually prohibit farm animals, but I’ve heard that some states are overriding those HOA rules and allow homesetters or homeowners to have chickens in their backyard. How can we find out what our rights are and respectfully prove it to the HOA and neighbors?

Jacob Lauser:

HOAs are a nightmare.

Anna Sakawsky:

But if you are in one and you’re dealing with one and there are state rules, for example, that say you’re allowed to grow food or you’re allowed to keep chickens or whatever it is, how could you possibly have a leg to stand on or prove that to the HOA or do they overrule that in that case or like who has the authority there?

Jacob Lauser:

HOAs suck and the reality is there are many HOAs that don’t have a legal leg to stand on, but they’re still on a power trip and they can make your life absolutely miserable. So I would say this, if you’re dealing with an HOA that is being unreasonable and outrageous and threatening you with fines and liens and all sorts of stuff, it might be beneficial to talk with an attorney about it because they’re going to be able to take a look at the CC&Rs and rules and an attorney is going to be the best person to be able to, an experienced attorney, a skilled one and knows the rules, is going to be able to take a look at those and give you a specific answer to push back to the HOA with. Because what I often see is it’s this bully mentality. People on a power trip, I hate to say stuff like this, but it’s the truth.

They’re on a power trip, they’re micromanaging their neighbors, they’ve gotten themselves elected to these boards specifically because they enjoy holding power over people and telling them what to do. And I see those sort of folks cropping up in HOA environments more than probably anywhere else in society. It’s just people that have nothing better to do and they like pushing people around and bullying them.

And it’s a psychological control thing. That’s not everyone, but what I’m saying is in the HOA environment, that is more conducive for people interfering with and manipulating other people. And I don’t like them. I really don’t like them. I’ve represented many HOAs, but my voice to them is always the same. Be reasonable in what you’re enforcing and so long as it’s not something specific that you guys have decided to prioritize, try to work with everyone. That being said, somebody comes to me and says, “I got an HOA, they’re bothering me. ” Idaho, for instance, has a chicken’s rule. I think it came down two years ago. And in my neighborhood, for instance, I currently rent, but we have the statewide chicken rule and there are multiple people in my neighborhood who have chickens. And I get out on the porch, I can hear them all day long.

No roosters, but I can hear the chickens clucking. And I know there’s probably 10 or 15, within three blocks of me, 10 or 15 people that have chickens. Now, it’s illegal under HOA rules. Our HOA doesn’t enforce it, but if they were squawking about it, no pun intended. If they were complaining about it, somebody could go and say, “All right, look, Idaho passed this rule. We’re allowed to have it. ” That might be enough to get the HOA to back down. It might not. I tell my clients all the time, “Look, you have a very strong case for whatever you’re dealing with, but I can’t stop anyone from suing you. If somebody wants to sue you, they’re going to be allowed to sue you and you’ll probably win, but I can’t stop you from having to deal with people who are on a power trip or just want to do something.” So consulting with an attorney to get a specific pushback for HOAs is important for a couple of reasons.

HOAs have a contractual right of enforcement of even unreasonable things, as long as they’re not unconstitutional. So if your state doesn’t have a chicken rule that allows everybody to have chickens and gardens, they may be able to enforce a no chicken rule against you and they have the power to lien and foreclose your property.That’s really the shocking thing. You see these horror stories all the time on the news. Somebody doesn’t pay their homeowner’s association dues or their fines and as long as they follow the procedures in the Statewide Homeowners Association Act or the Condominium Act, they can fine you. And if you don’t pay those fines within a certain amount of time, they can actually foreclose on your property just like a bank to pay their $3,000 in fines. I mean, that’s absolutely outrageous. Now, thankfully, there are some changes across the US at least to bring those things in a check so that people can’t literally foreclose your house because you get into a dispute and don’t want to pay the fines, but it has happened.

So you have to understand that homeowners association fights are probably one where you should a little more seriously consider some professional advice on if it’s over the top, because they could do some nasty things toward you that could literally lose you your house.

And then you might want to think of selling your house and going somewhere without an HOA.

Anna Sakawsky:

Yeah, no kidding. Before we moved out of the city and ended up over on Vancouver Island where we are now, we were in an apartment. We were in a condo in a suburb of Vancouver, just renting, but my family owned it. So it was technically owned, right? But yeah, we had what we up here anyway called Strata Council, which is the same deal, right? And it’s people who tend to be on a power trip who decide that there’s all these silly rules a lot of the time. We were fine for years and then it was things like we were getting notes on our car that you can’t back your car in anymore. You got to pull in one way and not the other way. And we had these nice retan blinds over our balcony to block the sun in the summer. No, we can’t have those anymore, but other people have sheets in their window and all these different things, right?

And so it was whatever. It was an interim point in our life when we knew we were moving on, but after just the experience we had there, I’m like, “I will never live again. I’d rather have our own place where we’re responsible for 100% of it. And yes, we’re on the line for all the costs associated with that and all the work that goes into it and all that sort of thing.” But man, the restrictions that we face just living there and not even really trying to do anything outside of just live our daily lives was too much for me. So yeah, from my experience, I would, especially as a homesteader, recommend against if you’re looking for land anyway, probably HOA is the last place you want to look, anything that’s highly regulated like that. Let’s bring it back to water use because you did mention that in the beginning.

So what should you consider before, say, digging a well or diverting water from a pond or a stream on your property? Just in general, again, high level, what’s kind of generally allowed, what’s not, and what do you need kind of a permit for?

Jacob Lauser:

Well, again, you should assume there are regulations when it comes to water, and that makes sense when you think about what water is. Water is life. I mean, if you don’t have water on a property, you can’t do much. And this distinction sort of arose … Water was never really an issue for a long time because our nation was restricted to the east where it was very wet, a lot of rain. But as people moved westward, they discovered things get a lot drier and you end up with these pockets of places with a lot of water like the Pacific Northwest and some parts of California. And then you have Oregon, of course, and then you have other places which are practically and literally deserts. And so water management became very important. And with the environmental shift that we’ve seen in our lifetimes, especially, I don’t want to say climate change because I don’t want to touch that third rail.

Again, we’re not trying to talk politics, but here’s the reality. Many, many places have changing climactic conditions, and whether they’re part of a cycle or not, the reality is there’s less water. And whether there’s less of a resource, people tend to fight over it. I’m actually from Tucson, Arizona originally. I grew up in the desert and I didn’t even see a flowing river until I was 17 years old and I visited Colorado. I think it was Denver and the Cherry Creek was just flowing through town and I was like … I mean, I’d seen a river, but nowhere that I’d actually paused and said, “Oh wow, that’s a river.” So in Arizona, the rivers flow for three hours after a big rainstorm in the summer and then the rest of the time is just that dry sandy place that people puts around in sometimes. So it really depends on your perspective, but the long and the short of it is, as things have gotten drier all over the place, people are fighting more about water and the government has stepped in to regulate that because the government actually wants to preserve water for its own uses.

Believe it or not, the government wants to control the water for power generation, agricultural things, agricultural regulation, and they actually make money off of brokering water and mediating water disputes. You’ve got the whole Colorado river adjudications and disputes with Native American tribes and all sorts of things. So out west, you should assume you probably don’t have any water rights. I mean, there’s even places where you’re not even allowed to drill a private well.

That’s usually regulated at the state level. I would encourage people to talk with your state level and see if there’s any well drilling regulations for private wells. You may find restrictions like we have an Idaho where you have to get a license to drill and they allow you to take so much water and so much of an allocation and then you have to get that formalized through the Idaho Department of Water Resources. A lot of states are the same way. You have to get some sort of license to drill. Those are mainly handled by well drillers. So if you call a well driller and you say, “I want to put a well in, ” they handle the whole process as part of their service for you. They’ll quote you 35,000 to drill a well. It’s going to be such and such deep and so many gallons a minute, and they do all the licensing and registration for you.

Others, you have to … Go ahead.

Anna Sakawsky:

Oh, I was just going to say, is this also kind of where this issue of collecting rainwater comes in too? Because I know there’s some, that’s been in the news a few times of people who have been fined or faced legal consequences for collecting rainwater. And I think from my recollection, it does tend to be people out west in maybe drier areas where there are more restrictions on that. How do you find out if that’s something that you’re able to do in your area or what kind of legal consequences could you face just for doing something like that?

Jacob Lauser:

Well, that’s a quick Google search. Am I allowed to collect rainwater in Oregon, for instance? In Oregon, you’re not allowed to collect rainwater. A big part of the state is just a giant desert plateau. And the theory is that every drop of rain that falls has to trickle down through the aquifers and go out where it’s supposed to do, or it could impact the negative or the balance of the environment. So there are states that do not even allow you to collect rainwater, or they require you to get a permit to collect the rainwater because they say it could affect the needs of the vegetation and the environment. Other places don’t care, but that’s a quick Google search. Am I allowed to collect rainwater in Tennessee? You ask that question, people are going to be like, “Of course. Why wouldn’t you? It falls all the time.

Who cares?” But when you go out somewhere like Nevada, I don’t know about Nevada, but you-

Anna Sakawsky:

No rainwater to collect. Yeah, there’s no

Jacob Lauser:

Rainwater to collect or it might be radioactive. Who knows? So anyway, that’s a sort of search you can look up, am I allowed to collect rainwater? And then it’ll say yes or no, and then you can go look at the state regulations for your area, but a lot of people don’t even think about that. Is it legal for me to collect rainwater? Is it legal for me to divert water that’s … The big one that I see is the water flowing across my land. Somebody is fortunate enough to buy a piece of property and they have a nice stream going through their property and they’re like, “I’m just going to stick a pipe in there and I’m going to spray it on my garden. That’s free water. Yay.” Well, you might not realize that you may not be allowed to do that without a license or a permit.

Now, Georgia, for instance, I’ve been looking at some property in Georgia recently and I got a hit back and I said, “Oh, surface water use is restricted.

You need a permit.” And I said, “Well, how many gallons am I allowed to use?” And the guy says, “Oh, anything over 100,000 gallons a day.” It was like 100,000 gallons a day. I mean, I’m never going to use that much water unless I were just spraying cornfields the entire time. And so sometimes the restrictions aren’t even worth considering, but you got to know what the limits are. So assume that there’s some sort of well drilling restriction or license required for groundwater. Assume that there’s some sort of restriction for surface water, even though you may be allowed to use a ton of it. There might be some local permitting or state permitting that you need, and then there could even be rainwater collection restrictions. But here’s something else I want to point out. People don’t think about this. Our world is incredibly contaminated and even things like firefighting foam that falls on the ground at airports that washes down the river from airports can contaminate all sorts of land with this stuff miles and miles away.

So when you’re talking about water use, partly it’s, am I allowed to use this or get access to it? But the second thing you should be thinking about it, is it safe to use? Are there potential contaminants? And those contaminants can be underground. Test your wells to see if there’s contaminants, forever chemicals, lead, all sorts of things. You can get water tests for that, but also think about what’s coming on the surface of the ground because water may wash miles and miles downstream and bring those things right to your property. It might not be safe to use. So legality and safety, that’s a big thing with water.

Anna Sakawsky:

Yeah. Well, and if you’re farming or homesteading too, about any runoff. And like most of us in the homesteading world, I think are doing things pretty organically and that sort of thing too, not necessarily using like synthetic fertilizers and that sort of thing where we’ve seen problems with massive runoff that’s causing algae blooms in the oceans and all sorts of things. But it’s just another factor to consider too, of like making sure that you don’t have runoff that’s ending up in the public waterways and that sort of thing because I’m sure that that could have some consequences, right?

Jacob Lauser:

That’s a big legal liability. A lot of people don’t realize this, but any state that borders the Chesapeake Bay in Maryland, Virginia, Pennsylvania, all those places actually have additional environmental regulations, especially farmers, but you’re actually not even allowed to store compost in bags in the parking lot of big box stores back east because the rain falls on the bags and leaches out nitrogen and then that goes down into the bay and it ruins oysters and fish habitats and stuff. So you can get big fines locally in the Chesapeake Bay area for that sort of thing and farmers have also been hit with fertilizer runoff for their property. So this is ending up turning into like, oh, all these things you never knew of, you’re going to have nightmares about. Again, I’m not trying to be the guy that holds up the stop sign and the sky is falling, but yeah, almost everything, even something like that, is there potential liability for fertilizer runoff or something?

Anna Sakawsky:

Okay. I want to move on and talk about business stuff before we kind of wrap up, because I know again, we could talk all day about all these different things, but you mentioned this is something that comes up a lot. People want to maybe earn an income off their property, sell some of the goods they’re producing, that sort of thing. So let’s just start with like the basics, which is typically when somebody starts growing food, raising chickens, for example, gardening, selling eggs, selling flowers, some of those kind of basic things that you think there’s not really, there can’t be too much restrictions around that sort of thing, right? They’re not being processed. So what are those things, first of all, pretty safe items to sell if you wanted to set up a farm stand or sell at the farmer’s market or that sort of thing?

Because they’re unaltered and they’re generally considered not dangerous or do you still need a permit or to meet certain regulatory standards? Where does that fall?

Jacob Lauser:

Well, I hate to be a broken record, but everything is regulated and

I am just as frustrated by these things as everyone else. I don’t want you thinking I’m championing the law and I’m thinking, oh yeah, this is what I’m supposed to champion the law, but I’m not advocating for illegal activities, but everything is regulated. That’s the reality. That’s the reality. So when people are getting into business and they’re thinking small, for instance, I gave the example earlier, tomato seedlings in a red solo cup. You got some extras at the end of the year and you want, you think, “I could sell these and get my money back from the 30 bucks I spent on Baker Creek heirloom seeds or something and that’ll pay for my seedlings.” And that’s legal, right? That’s easy. I can just sell that on Facebook Marketplace. No big deal. Wrong. Sadly, sadly, everything’s regulated. In many states, for instance, if you’re going to sell seedlings, even if it’s just a few, you are required to have a nursery permit.

Some places actually require inspection. I did this when I lived in California. I sold fruit trees and seedlings and a few other things, and I actually had to get a nursery license to do that. And I ended up stopping that when they changed the rules to start taxing certain percentage, not just sales tax, but a per plant requirement that they came up with, because they’re always trying to get some money or something. So many states require nursery licenses. I know Texas is a big one.

Not only do they have big requirements, they have big fines if they catch you doing it. And they actually have investigators that scrounge around on Facebook looking for people selling stuff and calling them up, “Do you have a nursery license for this? ” Yeah, so it’s just kind of ridiculous. So to answer a question like, what is safe to sell or what can we easily get started in? Well, again, you have to do it legally if you don’t want problems. Now, thankfully, there are some things that have popped up, especially in some of my favorite homesteading states back East, Tennessee, Georgia, North Carolina, a couple others. There are exemptions. So you look at cottage food laws. They’re called cottage food laws. There are exemptions where the state has said, because we want to encourage people to get into these businesses and we don’t want to limit them unnecessarily, we’re going to allow them to sell a certain type of food and a certain amount every year before we really kick in the regulations.

And as long as they qualify under these exemptions or they get a cottage food license, then they can do … I’m just spitballing here, but $5,000 worth of business every year. And some states have exemptions for nursery licenses, as long as you’re selling less than $800 of plants in a year. Often they’re very narrow and they’re very small, so they’re almost not worth it. But if you’re just selling a little bit here and there and you could keep it under the limit, then you may be able to sell cookies or breads or certain storable foods that aren’t prone to easy spoilage, things like jams or sourdough. A lot of people are making sourdough. So I encourage people to look at their cottage food regulations to see cottage foods are a big one, that there are specific laws that allow you to work within a limit to do something safely and generally legally, but you got to make sure you’re complying with the cottage food regulations.

So I’m

Anna Sakawsky:

Just curious to know too, like you mentioned with the seedlings, that I find really crazy because I mean, unless there’s some justification that like, oh, you could be selling some invasive species or something like … What is the legal justification outside of just, well, we want to make sure that you’re paying taxes on it because we want our cut. Is there one?

Jacob Lauser:

There used to be. Today, I think it’s all about the money. They want to get as much money as they can from any tax source that they can, and it’s greed. I hate to say it. I hate to say a lot of things, but that’s the reality. It’s greed and government overreach and they’re trying to get in our pockets. I mean, you can’t even sell anything on eBay. I mean, eBay is way out of date, but you can’t sell anything on the internet anymore, more than what, $600 before it gets reported to the IRS. So it’s about taxation. It’s about income and taxation. It used to be for phytosanitary reasons, basically making sure that you weren’t spreading plant diseases all over the place.

Sometimes it had to do with invasive species. So they wanted to make sure that you weren’t growing something invasive and selling it to all your neighbors and it was going to cause a problem. And there are legitimate places. For instance, Southern California is under a citrus quarantine has been for a long time because if you end up with the Asian citrus salad like they did in Florida, I mean, 95% of the Florida citrus industry has been destroyed in the last 10 years because of citrus greening disease. And that was brought in from China, but that would have been something to be a little more careful of because it can destroy multi-billion dollar industries if you have backyard people bringing in diseases and plants into places that could harm the economy. That’s common sense. Any more these days though, it’s just about money. They’re just looking for tax revenue.

And I have talked with people in these agencies who say it’s an annoyance to have to regulate small people selling seedlings in their backyard, but that it’s part of a push to either exercise regulatory control so that people can’t do things without their permission or to get more tax money or certificate money or fee money out of it. But it’s really the big producers and the big importers that they’re focusing on for health and safety reasons.

Anna Sakawsky:

Right, right.

Jacob Lauser:

Yeah. So there’s a mix of reasons and they’re all legitimate in a way, but when you actually get down to what you’re actually enforcing every day, why are they annoying people selling seedlings out of their backyard?

Anna Sakawsky:

Well, yeah. I think it’s interesting because it’s come up several times during this conversation. Well, then they want their cut, right? Somebody wants their cut. Everybody wants to get in on it. Okay. So produce, eggs like, yes, there’s regulations, but maybe a little bit safer or more standardized than, for example, value added products. Like you mentioned, breads, jams, still fairly safe, but again, now you’re processing food, right? You’re processing it probably in your kitchen Right? If you’re doing this at home, especially if maybe you want to can some soup and you’re going to do it safe and you’re going to pressure can it or whatever, but obviously there’s some legitimate health and safety concerns with something like that. What should somebody be aware of if they’re actually … Or maybe Joel Salatin always brings up the example of the chicken pot pie. It shouldn’t be regulated to be able to sell a chicken pot pie to my neighbor.

But it obviously is for a reason, A, because somebody wants their cut, but B, because there’s probably some health and safety concern with it. Somebody probably died from a chicken pot pie at some point in history or whatever, as you say. So what should people be aware of before they just go ahead and start cooking up a storm in their kitchen and selling what they’re cooking?

Jacob Lauser:

Well, again, I would direct everyone to look at their state cottage food regulations first because cottage foods are usually limited to shelf stable items that aren’t going to spoil, don’t need refrigeration and don’t carry a specific risk of disease with them. So you’re talking about some breads and some cookies and candies and things that are cooked at an extremely high temperature and aren’t going to spoil very quickly without refrigeration. So most cottage foods will cover things like jam. You got to deal with the issue of low acid foods, stuff like that. So what I tell people is generally cottage foods are going to entail anything that can be water bath canned. When you start talking about pressure canning, the reason you pressure can things is you have to have a higher temperature to kill the potential diseases and organisms to make them shelf stable. And if you’re not able to do that with the right equipment, whatever comes out of your canner could still potentially make people sick with botulism or something like that.

I don’t want to say those risks are overblown, but again, regulators want to be absolutely safe. So if they’re going to put the green light on something, they’re going to make sure that it has a low risk for poisoning people.

Anna Sakawsky:

Okay. Well, because all it takes is one, right?

Jacob Lauser:

All it takes is one. And botullism, believe it or not, before the canning industry really got its act together, even back in like the 1910s, 1930s, there was a lot of botulism. I remember my grandmother used to check all of her cans, even into the 90s and 2000s. She checked all of her cans for botulism because she had known people that had been poisoned by botulism way, way back in the day. And people should be smart about what they open to a can. Don’t eat it if it smells bad.

Anna Sakawsky:

Botulism is one of those you can’t smell or anything too. I’m always weary if somebody, even if I fairly trust the person, if somebody gives me something that’s like meat that’s been canned or something that I know is a low acid food. And even if they say like, “Oh, yeah, I did it the right way,” because I just don’t know and I’m not willing to take that risk. And I think that in a perfect world, like Joel often says, that responsibility should fall on us to make that informed decision. And if that’s a risk we’re willing to take, then great. But again, not everybody is informed about that. They might eat something and then all of a sudden there’s an issue. And so it makes sense. What about like having, because I’ve heard that, and maybe this is just in some places or maybe it’s across the board, but if you’re processing food to sell, that you need to have some sort of commercial kitchen or it needs to be inspected.

There’s some rules around just being able to do this in your kitchen.

Jacob Lauser:

Yeah. So again, that varies from state to state and from county to county. We have pretty strict county restrictions in Kootenai County where I currently live in Idaho compared to Bonner County or Boundary County, just two counties north of here, which have practically none. So if it’s not regulated at the state level, your local county may have health and safety regulations that are tied to commercial food production or restaurant type stuff that they lump home producers into. So you may have to get a commercial kitchen which is inspected and subject to all the rules for restaurants, safety, health certificates, all of that sort of stuff. And we actually know one producer here in North Idaho who had to do that. She wanted to start a syrup, apple syrup production off of her orchard, and she was forced to actually construct an expensive commercial kitchen and have it inspected.

But because she had to do that, she’s now able to sell to all the grocery stores in the region. We see her products on the shelves. So there’s some trade offs here. I want to tell people, a big benefit for complying with all these rules, even if you don’t agree with them, is that it opens doors. It’s like, okay, you’ve played the game, you’ve done what we told you to do and we gave you a stamp of approval. Well, you’re now allowed to do all sorts of cool stuff like selling to all the grocery stores in the state or expanding to regional distribution and ending up with a multimillion dollar business. So there are benefits to approaching these things and attacking them head on and just saying, “I’m going to do this the full legal way from the very beginning because guess what? I can then go to the farmer’s market and say that I’m fully certified and I can charge you 10% more or whatever and I have a legitimate business.” Now, there’s tax things that go with all of that, but there’s some benefits to complying from the beginning, but it really depends on what you’re looking to do, how much you’re looking to expand.

But for cottage foods type stuff, again, there are cottage food rules in most states now and it’s getting better everywhere where there’s certain types of shelf stable things that aren’t likely to poison people that have a low risk. But even when you sell those, you should be aware of low risk does not mean no risk. So you got to think about liability and potentially insurance whenever you make any of these decisions, but that’s a longer conversation.

Anna Sakawsky:

All right. Well, last one I’m going to ask you before, I’m going to wrap up with a few reader questions that came in, but the last kind of question on this topic is about meat and dairy. And I know, again, you’re going to say, of course there’s regulations. And with this one, I mean, it definitely makes sense. And obviously there’s areas where raw dairy is legal, there’s places where it isn’t. I mean, I’m in Canada, it is illegal across the board up here to sell raw milk. So I know there are loopholes in some areas where you can sell it as pet food or that sort of thing. But in general, like we did have a reader question just asking, I live in Texas or wherever they live, can I sell my Jersey cow milk and can I sell meat from my meatbirds or whatever?

As a general overview question, what would you say to that? What sort of things should you consider there or where do you even begin?

Jacob Lauser:

Probably not.

Anna Sakawsky:

Probably not.

Jacob Lauser:

That’s a good safe answer. Probably not. Look, all of the regulations in place are usually, unless you have small producer rules, all of the regulations in place are geared toward large scale producers. So when you’re talking about butchering meat, packaging meat, aging meat, distributing meat, they are often set up for large producers, which is usually structured through a politically motivated, organized structure that arose 50 or 100 years ago for meat packers groups or ranchers or all these things. So you’re dealing with big, big rules, with big regulations. And they’re usually geared toward constituencies that advocated senators or something like that, and they’ve been existing for a long, long time. So you get a small producer coming along, you literally cannot comply with the terms of the statutes because you can’t do it on the scale or using the meat packers, organizations, or whoever it is.

So when you’re coming in as a small producer, you have to understand that’s what you’re dealing with. You’re dealing with multi-billion or multi-trillion dollar industries that have politically influenced and shaped the rules for their own gain over a long, long time. So when you’re coming in and you want to do that, you have to understand that’s what exists. So when you start trying to get carve outs, if you don’t have these rules in your state, you may find yourself having to advocate for yourself on the small scale or advocate for others from a food sovereignty point of view, just like Joel Salatin’s done. And to change those rules, and that can take time and that could take energy and that could take a real investment over a lifetime. So if you’re not ready for that, don’t be shocked when you hit a wall and that’s what you’re dealing with.

Thankfully though, there have been a lot of people that have come before you, even starting in the 1960s and 70s. There’s a lot of hippies, quote unquote, hippies are the punchline to a lot of jokes, but in many ways in the ’60s and ’70s, these now baby boomers were the ones who are pioneering alternative energy, alternative lifestyles, alternative food productions, living off the grid and Mother Earth news. So we have a good history and a good heritage to base on a lot of the work that they’ve done in most states. So again, what you’re probably going to find is small scale rules that have cropped up in various places, which will allow you to pack meat, sell dairy products, and do all that on a smaller scale. My wife’s family actually had a small dairy for 50 years or so until the 1980s, and one of her uncles continues that work on a small scale.

So I know there’s rules and places that allow that, but if you’re just a homesteader starting out and you’ve got some extra meat, you’ve got some extra milk, unless it falls under specific cottage food exemptions, you’re probably dealing with large scale rules that you may or may not be able to comply with, but you got to go look at them. And talking with your extension offices, your agricultural extension offices, that’s a huge resource. Go to your county or your state agricultural extension offices and say, “I want to start a business and I want to run 30 head of cattle a year and we’re going to sell less than 20,000 pounds of meat every year. Is there a category available for me and how do I go about doing that? ” And they can be a huge resource because they’re there to help people start businesses.

Remember, bigger businesses mean bigger taxes. So most states want to encourage this, but you got to know what the rules are and see if there’s an exemption to play in. And you see things like these herd shares and there’s all sorts of creative workarounds. I don’t like calling them loopholes because loopholes tend to get closed if enough people jump onto them, but there are workarounds and there are exemptions and ways that people can start these businesses. You just got to go out and look and see if it’s something that you can pursue and comply with.

Anna Sakawsky:

Yeah. Okay. Well, on that note, I do have a few more reader questions that I wanted to ask before we wrap up. One of them is kind of related to this, the idea of starting a business, selling some goods from your property. So Ruth Ann had asked about non-food items like soaps, candles, other handmade items. She said, “Am I allowed to sell altered products like goat milk soap,” for example, without having an LLC or an official farm title. So I guess, can you just start selling this stuff or what kind of business permits or titles do you need?

Jacob Lauser:

Yeah, so that’s a different issue entirely. So LLCs are a type of corporate structure. It’s in the name, limited liability company, that’s an LLC. So an LLC is a type of company. Another type of company is a company, Co or Incorporated.That’s a larger sort of company. It too has some limited liability, but it’s a different structure. And then you have what are called sole proprietorships. So if you’re just selling something without getting a license or without getting a company, you’re a sole proprietorship or you’re a small partnership. And those are basically just tax distinctions and whether or not your liability is limited to your investment in the company or whether it’s all falling on you as a person and an individual. I recommend that if you live in a state that has favorable LLCs that don’t cost you a ton of money, like California, it only costs a couple hundred bucks I think to start an LLC and to pay for the registration every year, but they also have a minimum tax that you have to pay of 700 bucks a year with the franchise tax board.

So that ends up being a thousand dollars minimum to start an LLC every year in California.That’s not usually attainable, but most states have pretty affordable LLC rules. I encourage people to start an LLC and wherever they’re at and because that is going to limit their liability to the amount of investment that they have in the company. So if you only have $5,000 in supplies and $5,000 in whatever else associated with your business, your liability to anybody outside of that is $10,000. So they’re great for limiting your exposure from doing business and protecting your personal assets from corporate assets.

Anna Sakawsky:

Right. Because as a sole proprietor, as I understand it, because we actually don’t have LLCs in Canada, and this has been an issue for my husband and I with businesses that we’ve had, is there’s really only sole proprietorship or you’re incorporated and both of those things have their pros and cons, but as I understand it, as a sole proprietor, if somebody were to sue you for something, they can come after you and your personal property and your home, right? So that’s where the LLC, just for anybody who doesn’t understand what that is, that’s where it can come into play where you don’t necessarily need to go to the level of incorporating if you’re just selling, you have a small business or selling some things for your homestead or whatever, but it can protect you so that they can’t go after all of your personal assets only, as you said, what’s invested in the company.

Is that correct?

Jacob Lauser:

Yes. And that’s a unique business structure to the US. They want to encourage small businesses without having to go the formal requirements of a full incorporated company. So it’s sort of an in between. Now, that’s just business structure. To really answer your question is, can people start selling stuff? You can start selling stuff. Let’s say you’re okay with the exposure of a sole proprietorship. You’re just going to be selling soap. You don’t think it’s going to be an issue and you’re going to do it for a hobby for a couple years and then get out. Okay. You don’t want to go into all the structures and the paperwork that’s required for an LLC. Just understand that you’re potentially liable even if it’s low. And then what you have to understand is when you’re selling things, what’s the first thing that always comes up when you think about business and selling things?

Sales tax.

Sales tax. So you are selling a product. Whether or not you make it or you’re reselling it, the government wants a cut. So everywhere, everywhere in the United States, I don’t know of a single place. Personally, I don’t know of a single place. There might be, but I don’t know of a single place that doesn’t have sales tax regulations. So usually what that requires, even if you are sole proprietorship, although again, I recommend an LLC, you’re going to go to your state taxing authority and you’re going to tell them, “I want a sales tax license because I’m going to be selling soap.” And they’ll usually have an application. They ask you what you’re going to be doing. I had to do one recently for something else and we had to get a taxpayer ID number, a separate taxpayer ID number from the federal government, and then we had to give the taxpayer ID number to the state tax board, and then they issued a tax ID number and gave us access to the system where we have to submit quarterly returns, and we had to give them an estimate of how much we’re going to be selling and when, so that they could try to match up our anticipated revenue for taxes.

And you’re going to have to file a quarterly tax return that says, “I sold thousand soaps and here’s your $59 or whatever it is in tax sales.” And it’s a lot of paperwork. It is a lot of paperwork. Thankfully though, there are programs out there now you can buy pretty cheaply that track your finances and your sales tax and prepare all the tax filings for you. And there’s some good services out there for that, but it’s easier than it used to be, but you’re going to have to do that. And if you get caught selling products, and let’s say you’re successful, you sell $10,000 of products in a year and you owe the government $400 in tax or whatever it is, you could literally get busted for tax evasion. So yeah, we’re talking, whenever you talk about not remitting taxes to the government, if you got to obey any law first, as long as it’s not like don’t murder people, but any other law that the government has, learn the lesson that Al Capone faced, do your taxes.

There’s actually people out there, I won’t comment more on this, but there’s actually people out there who do illegal businesses, like marijuana growers in California. They’ll file their taxes to keep the feds off their backs, even though what they’re doing is technically illegal because it takes away any potential tax evasion charges. So it’s pretty funny. But yeah, I recommend people, remember there’s sales taxes and those sales taxes might be state, they may be local. So you’re going to need a business license from your local area, you’re going to have a business license. You may also need a business license or a professions license from the state, depending on whether that area like a nursery license for plants or something like that. And then you’re going to have to deal with sales tax. And that can be pretty complicated, but that’s what the law says. So that’s what you need to do if you can do sole proprietorship selling off your farm, those are the three main considerations for that.

Anna Sakawsky:

All right. Well, that makes sense. And yes, living in Canada, I know all about the taxes. It was funny when you said $10,000 and you owe $400 in taxes, I was thinking, that sounds pretty low for up here. Yeah.

Jacob Lauser:

Could be more.

Anna Sakawsky:

Oh, man. Okay. So next question. Allison asked, this is a bit more of a specific one. She says, “My husband and I have 20 acres in North Idaho, so at least area you’re familiar with, from which we have selectively logged enough over the past 30 years to pay for the buying price a few times over. It’s a recognized tree farm, but is now going to need to regenerate for 15 to 20 years before it’s logged in. We are officially able to retain the tree farm status with the state during that 20 years. In the meantime, we have been upgrading the barn on the 20 acres to include electricity and running mountain well water and we’ll be refinishing half of it to be a small living space/office.” Okay, so that’s with that land. So she says, “We have an abundance of medicinal herbs available there and hope to start an orchard garden, possibly apiary as well.” Meanwhile, we actually live 20 miles away from the tree farm where we have an extensive garden, orchard, and a flock of chickens.

Is it legal? She said unadvisable, but we know you can’t advise, but is it legal to your knowledge to continue to treat the improvements of the tree farm together with those at our homestead as tax deductible, if we are selling produce from both properties over the next several years while we wait for another crop of trees to grow to maturity?

Jacob Lauser:

Well, unfortunately, that is the sort of question that I would say, speak with a local attorney in your area for specific advice on your particular situation. I can tell you this, there are sometimes exemptions which allow you to swap off benefits and tax advantages for different types of property and apply them to other parcels that you own. In this particular situation, I would have to look at the particular status of the properties to look at what the agreement under the agency states, because there are different sort of preservation easements or preservation agreements that you get a preferential tax status and a discount for certain properties for a specific amount of time, and the fine print of those agreement will tell you whether you’re able to swap that out to a different property and continue treating it in a different way to take maximum advantage of that.

And that’s sort of a case by case determination that would require an attorney sitting down looking at all that for an hour or two and then talking with you about it. I get that a lot. People come to me and they say, “I want to do this. I want to do that. ” First thing I’m going to say is, “Well, let me see the documents that relate to all this so that I can tell you for sure what they say.” And then I go back and I look at the statute and I say, “Here’s what the statute allows and here’s the exemptions and here’s how you could swap it around.” So they may be there. I don’t know without doing that sort of research and deep dive into the specifics of that property, but they do exist. And if they were consulting with me legally, sitting down in my office, that’s exactly the process I would go through is, “All right, well let me see all your documents.

Let me see what deeds you have. Let me see what’s recorded on the property. Let me see the last correspondence that you had with the agency and what the document or the agreement was that was recorded here between you and the agency to set this up or whether you’ve been doing it informally.”

Anna Sakawsky:

And

Jacob Lauser:

Then I’d sit down and say, “Here’s what I found.” So yeah, that’s a very, very specific question that would need a deep dive on that, but they do exist.

And those are the sort of things I tell people. There are opportunities where you can spend two or $300 consulting with an attorney for an hour or two with a specific problem and you say, “Here’s what I need to know. How can I do this? ” And then you give it to them and they give you the answer and you’re able to go from there, go back to the agency and say, “I talked with an attorney, here’s what I said, here’s the letter they gave me that outlines our rights, here’s what we want to do. ” And then the agency says, “Okay, you’ve done your homework. Okay, we’ll do that. ” Or, “We won’t do that. Or the attorney can negotiate on your behalf.” So that’s how that usually works.

Anna Sakawsky:

Okay, that makes sense. Okay. We got one more reader question before we wrap up here. So this is one that I left till the end because this pertains to me too. Nick asked, “Do you have any land and property laws, livestock, liability, water rights, cottage food regulations, or bartering information for homesteaders who live in Canada? What do you know about us poor Canadians up

Jacob Lauser:

Here?” Canada is a beautiful place. I’ve visited only a handful of times in my life. One of our favorite things to do during the pandemic was to show up at the Canadian border north of Bonners Ferry and try to get into the country so we could go up and have lunch in Creston or something, but stopped by the, I think was it Tim Horton’s or something?

Anna Sakawsky:

Yeah.

Jacob Lauser:

Yeah. But as far as the rules go, I know a lot of general things about Canadian law. I’m not a licensed attorney in Canada. I have studied some things that mainly have to do with taxation in Canada. And I’ll tell you, the only thing I can say about taxation and homesteading stuff in Canada is I’m so sorry. I’m so sorry. Every country has the right to set its own rules and laws, but I do recognize that you are under a significantly broader, it seems to me, a significantly broader regulatory, just a regulatory scheme and taxation set up up there that, I mean, what’s VAT? Value added tax, we don’t even deal with that. And some of the stuff out of Europe is even worse. So the short answers, I don’t have a lot. I know some general things and I have some friends that are up there and they tell me the stories and the horror stories and some of the benefits.

I really love that you have some pretty cool access to hydroelectric power abilities on properties that we don’t have down here that’s really cool. So there’s trade offs there. But for those sort of questions, I have the ability to do research from an academic perspective and kind of comment just from an intellectual philosophical position, but for specific questions, we really do need a Canadian attorney, sort of a counterpart of mine in Canada who can get together and talk about some of these things because there’s a lot of homesteaders who reach out to me and say exactly that. “What can you tell me about Canada? “And I’m still looking. So if we find a good homesteading person up in Canada who wants to get together and team up for the sort of universal response on these things, I’d love to talk with them, but I don’t have too much.

All

Anna Sakawsky:

Right. Well, I’ll keep my eye open for that because maybe we can have somebody else contributing from the Canadian perspective and that sort of

Jacob Lauser:

Thing. We can write a book together.

Anna Sakawsky:

That being said, you had mentioned that if somebody were to work with you, that you can kind of look more deeply into different situations, that sort of thing. So where can people find you and maybe contact you to work with you if they would like? And also you’re based out of North Idaho. So what areas do you service? Is it all across the US or is it just in your local area? What sort of legal services do you actually offer people at this point in your

Jacob Lauser:

Career? Well, it’s interesting that you should catch me at this particular time because we’re in the middle of a transition. I just resigned from my current office so that we could pursue some other opportunities, including growing the homesteaders legal brand and creating more education, speaking at conferences and a few other things. So right now, I’m not taking clients just now, but we’re going to be settling probably later in the summer and we actually might be relocating. We’ll see what happens there. We’re looking back at Georgia and a couple other places that we’ve really enjoyed and we’re looking to get that farm that we’ve always wanted. So we’re in a bit of a transition, but I do do work through Homesteaders Legal. I think I have a good contact page set up there with links to emails and some other stuff. My YouTube channel has been a little dormant recently because we’ve been preparing for all of this and doing some things, but I’m happy to just speak with people.

If you go through the homesteaders.legal website, I have an email there and I can talk with people. I will just give that same caveat because I’ll tell them the same thing. I’m not currently accepting clients clients. I’m happy to share educational information to help point you in the right direction, but as far as like hiring me as an attorney, that’s a transition thing. So we’ll see where that settles soon. But I do envision that I’m going to be doing a lot more speaking, a lot more writing, and being more directly involved on an advocacy level and an education level. And I’m really, really looking forward to meeting some folks at the upcoming conferences across the country in this next year, year or two, and sharing more. So that’s kind of where we’re at the moment. But yeah, you caught us. If you’d asked me three months ago, this all came up very suddenly and it was like, oh, well, we can actually try to move forward and make a life’s change here or continue what we’re doing.

And we’re making some decisions that as we speak, we’ve got things in the works. Well,

Anna Sakawsky:

That’s exciting. Well, that’s very exciting and exciting to hear that you’re doing some speaking events. And obviously we love having you as a contributor. You’re kind of contributing on around a quarterly basis or so right now, but I mean, I have so many ideas that I’ve got just from this conversation, right? I mean, again, we kind of broadly covered the different areas where you might come up against legal challenges as a homesteader, but we can get really granular into each of those topics. So I’m really looking forward to having you write some more for us and hopefully have you back on the podcast to go a little deeper. I think this is the longest we’ve ever recorded for, just because there is just so much to talk about, right? And I find it fascinating. And I am somebody who, my eyes glaze over at legal stuff, but I find it really interesting, especially hearing some of these things like technically it’s illegal to grow food in the States and you need a nursery, all these things.

I’m like, “What?” Mind blown, right? So thank you anyway so much for coming on today and for sharing your expertise with us. I know against just the tip of the iceberg, so much more we could cover, but a really good general overview. So for our listeners, if you want to follow Jacob’s work, obviously check out his articles in Homestead Living and visit homesetters.legal. We’ll leave links to anything we mentioned to your website and to your YouTube channel and all that in the show notes for people to learn more or to get in contact with you if they so choose. And again, if you have any legal questions of your own that you thought of today during this conversation that you would like us to maybe explore in a future episode or an article, please leave them in the comments below and we’ll try to work them in at some point.

And of course, as always, yeah, anything we mentioned, we’ll make sure we link below. And if you enjoyed the conversation, be sure to subscribe so you don’t miss for future episodes. And if you know someone who could benefit from this information, please share this episode with them as well. So we always appreciate it so that we can reach a wider audience and help more people. Thank you so much for being with us here today, Jacob.

Jacob Lauser:

Thank you. It was a pleasure. I look forward to talking more soon.

Anna Sakawsky:

Awesome. Well, thanks everybody. And I’ll see you back here next time on The Coop. Before we wrap up today, I just want to thank you, our listeners, for being a part of this community. If you’ve been listening for a while and haven’t yet joined us as a subscriber, this is your sign to start your subscription to Homestead Living Magazine. A Homestead Living subscription includes six beautifully printed issues each year, and they’re designed to be kept, dog eared, bookmarked, pulled off your shelf and referred back to you again and again. Every issue is filled with practical skills, seasonal guidance, and trusted voices who’ve put in the hours and learned the hard way so that you don’t have to. Right now, a full year, all six issues is just $49 and it is one of the best ways to support the work that we do here while building a home library that you’ll return to again and again.

As the editor, I may be a little bit biased, but if you value thoughtful, authentic, grounded guidance from people who don’t just talk the homesteading talk, but actually walk the homesteading walk, then this magazine was made for you. So you can start your subscription now by heading to homesteadliving.com/subscribe or click the link in the show notes.

Susan Poizner:

Seeing that you can grow your own food changed me completely. Sit and decide, first of all, what type of fruit you want to grow. That’s important. Are you going to cook with it? Do you want to eat it raw? Do you want to make it into cider? Because different cultivars shine in different ways. And just choosing the right tree will get rid of 60% of the problems that you would’ve had. If you had planted trees from the big box store and just waited to see what happens, you have an ongoing relationship with the tree to ensure it’s partnership between you and the tree. You want to ensure that it gets everything it needs so that it can produce yummy fruit for you. And then it’ll give you lots of fruit and it’ll be so happy and healthy. Okay? So yes and the first three to five years are the most important time when you are building and sculpting the tree into the ideal structure.

Anna Sakawsky:

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You head to azurestandard.com right now to get started. Again, that’s azurestandard.com. Well, hello everyone and welcome to episode number 19 of The Coop. I’m your host, Anna Sokowski, editor-in-chief of Homestead Living Magazine, the magazine for Homesteaders Buy Homesteaders. And today we are talking about something that I think many homesteaders dream about, and that is growing your own fruit. So there’s something deeply satisfying about stepping outside and picking a fresh apple pear or cherries straight from your own tree. Not to mention harvesting enough fruit to enjoy fresh and preserve for the rest of the year. But for many people, fruit trees can feel a little intimidating. There’s a lot to think about when it comes to choosing the right varieties, understanding pollination, knowing when and how to prune, figuring out how to properly care for trees throughout the seasons, dealing with problems as they come up.

And for beginners, it can be hard to know where to start. And I know that myself because I am a beginner fruit tree grower as well. I just planted my very first fruit tree last year, a cherry tree, and I did so actually with the help of our guest today. So today’s episode is all about breaking down the basics of growing fruit trees, especially for those who are just getting started. We’ll be talking about how to choose the right fruit tree varieties for your property, when and how to plant them, how long it typically takes before you can expect a harvest, and what sort of care fruit trees need to stay healthy and productive for many years. And to help guide us through all of this, I am joined by someone who has dedicated much of her work to helping people grow fruit successfully. Susan Poisner is an orchardist, educator, and the founder of orchardpeople.com.

She teaches gardeners and orchardists around the world how to grow healthy, productive fruit trees. She’s the author of several books on Fruit Tree Growing, the host of the Orchard People Radio Show and podcast, and she teaches fruit tree care through workshops and courses designed for gardeners of all experience levels. Plus, she’s a contributor to Homestead Living Magazine. So you know she’s been vetted and is truly an expert in her field. Susan has spent years helping people gain the knowledge and confidence to grow fruit trees successfully, even if they are just starting with a single tree in their backyard. So I’m so excited to have her here with me today and share some of her knowledge with us. So Susan, welcome to the show.

Susan Poizner:

I’m so happy to be here with you. Thank you, Anna.

Anna Sakawsky:

Well, I’m so happy to have you here with me because I have already gained so much knowledge from you. Just from the articles that you’ve written, I know you’ve written a couple articles for the magazine already on … One was on pruning, which I found fascinating because pruning, I feel like goes against our instincts as gardeners and growers. We think we want to produce things. We want things to grow. We don’t want to cut and remove things, right? So that I found really interesting learning about how to properly prune fruit trees. And then you did another one on, I think, fall fruit tree care, and then kind of getting ahead of some common problems before they start. And then we actually got the chance to sit down, just you and I, and my husband joined this conversation last year when we planted our first fruit tree because we had no idea what we were doing.

And I was like, “I know who we need to talk to. We got to get Susan on the phone.” Because our situation is a little bit unique too, and we’ll get into this, but we planted a cherry tree with … It’s got six different varieties grafted onto it. And so we were like, “Oh, what do we do with this? Does this follow the normal rules? What do we do? ” So having your help was … I think we’re on the right track because it looks like everything’s looking healthy and butting out now. And so I’m excited to see what happens with our tree this year. But before we get into all this, I always just like to ask a little bit about your background because I think you have a really unique story of how you got into growing fruit trees and became an orchardist because you were a journalist before you were an orchardist, correct?

Susan Poizner:

Yeah. I was a journalist for many, many years and a radio producer, a television producer. I did documentary films and the world of media changed. I had also been living in the UK. I had been living in Russia. I had a very interesting career, but when I came back to North America, I was like, “Okay, what am I going to do now?” I started a production company. I love education. I’ve always been very interested in teaching people stuff. So long story short, I ended up marrying my husband who is originally from Trinidad and loved gardening. And I’m like, “Listen, I don’t do that stuff. I don’t get my hands dirty. This is not my thing.” And he wanted to plant up the garden with this, that, and the other. And I’m like, “You know what? It’s going to be a mess and it’s all going to fall on me and I’m not doing it.

” And I gave him such hassle. In the end, it was magical. When seeing how things grow, seeing that you can grow your own food changed me completely and it put me on a different trajectory completely. So I ended up going to a landscape design school, learning about landscape design, falling in love with trees and falling in love with fruit trees because it’s food, one of my passions and nature, one of my passions. I planted a community orchard in my local park. That was a whole challenge in itself. There was some opposition interestingly, but we got through all the hurdles. We planted this orchard. I was already a gardener and I had no idea what I was doing. And I just thought you’re going to water the trees and they’ll be just fine. They take care of themselves and it could not be further from the truth when you’re planting fruit trees.

Even regular trees, they need watering, especially when they’re establishing themselves. They only need a minimal amount of pruning, but they do need a little tenderness and love and care. Fruit trees are twice as … I don’t want to say challenging. They’ve cut so many opportunities, but they do have challenges that come with it. And part of that is because they are not exactly the kind of trees you would find in nature. You talked about your multi-fruit cherry tree, right? When you go out in nature, and if you’re going on a hike wherever you live, are you going to come across a tree that grows five or six different types of fruit on it? Absolutely not. Right? I wish. And that illustrates how fruit trees are made. They are all grafted. Your tree is super grafted. It’s supercharged, but almost every fruit tree that you’re going to grow, whether it’s like a Macintosh apple tree or a bing cherry or whatever you’re growing is a grafted tree.

So it has roots from one type of tree and it has the top part is a different type of tree. That’s your fruiting wood. And they are carefully matched so that they will produce a tree that produces the fruit that you want to grow and grows the size that you need. So you don’t necessarily want your little multi-fruit cherry tree to be 60 feet tall and not … You can’t climb to go and harvest it and it all goes to waste and then the squirrels get it all or whatever.

So grafted trees were kind of developed for a reason so we can customize our fruit trees saying that they need help. In order to produce a healthy, delicious, and quality harvest, they need help. And we can talk about why.

Anna Sakawsky:

I find that really interesting. I’ve always wondered about grafted trees and the fact that you kind of mentioned that they’re all basically grafted nowadays. I think of that because I am a gardener. I’m new to fruit trees, but I know gardening and seeds and that sort of thing. And so I think of them almost like planting hybrid seeds where they’re kind of developed specifically to have certain traits. But there are also open pollinated seeds. We have heirlooms, that sort of thing. So are there trees still out there that you can get that are not grafted? When you have kids, for example, that’ll eat an apple and they go, “Oh, here’s the seed. Can I plant the seed?” And you’re like, “Well, no, it doesn’t really work that way.” Does it work? They’re like, “Can it work that way still? Why doesn’t it work that way?”

Susan Poizner:

It does. It absolutely works that way. And it’s a wonderful project. It’s a multi-year project because apples are such a great example. An apple will, let’s say, have five seeds. Each seed is a genetically unique individual, just like you and your partner may have five children. They are not clones of you. They’re unique. They’ve got their own, they might have different hair color and different eye color. They might have some similar traits, but there’ll be a combination. The same thing happens with an apple tree. So the mother and the father tree both contribute sort of genetic material and you get a completely unique apple tree. So it’s still an apple tree. It will still grow fruit if you grow a seedling tree. The problem is the fruit might not actually taste very good. So in American history, they talk about Johnny appleseed. He collected all these seeds.

He planted all these apple trees and he collected or the people who then lived wherever he planted them would collect those apples and turn it into cider. Those weren’t yummy and delicious crunching on apples. Those were great for juicing, for cider, for fermenting, and that was an important part of life at that time. But in society today, we want our apples to taste good fresh or we want to bake with them and you are rolling the dice when you’re planting an apple seed, whether the fruit will taste good. Now, if you have five to seven years to wait to see, go for it. It’s an awesome project.

Interestingly, a lot of the ideas about pruning you’ll still want to do to improve the quality of the fruit, but yes, you can do that. But most gardeners, like you were saying in the beginning, they’re excited about planting fruit trees. They don’t want to wait five to seven years to see if the fruit tastes good. They want to know that this fruit is going to be the same fruit that Melissa next door was growing and it was awesome. I really enjoyed that fruit. It was maybe a special cultivar, maybe whatever her grandmother gave her this apple clipping from her apple tree. You love it. You want to propagate it, you clone it with grafting. I’ve even written a book called Fruit Tree Grafting for Everyone, which actually tells you how simple it is to take a cutting from a tree that produces fruit that you love to eat and to graft it to create your own tree for your backyard where you will get that exact type of fruit.

Anna Sakawsky:

Right. Okay. That actually makes a lot of sense. And especially in the context of the fact that it can take a number of years to get a harvest. So it’s a little bit different than when you’re growing an annual garden and you may want to take a chance at a seed that you’ve saved that may have cross-pollinated with something else and you go, “Oh, well, we’ll try it. And if it’s not great, then oh well.” But that’s only one season and one small plot in your garden that you have dedicated to that and that’s it. But when you’re growing a fruit tree, rolling the dice on that and not knowing what you’re going to get and then waiting, like you say, five to seven years to see is probably not in most people’s best interest. Although, like you say, if you have a lot of land, if you have the space to do it and you can dedicate a little bit of space to experimentation, then it’s cool to know that you can.

Susan Poizner:

Yeah. And it’s

Anna Sakawsky:

Also cool to know that you can graft your own. I remember my mom saying that my, I think it was my great-grandfather, my grandfather’s grandpa used to do that a lot. She’s like, “Oh yeah, he used to graft apple trees and that sort of thing.” So I always thought that was really cool because that’s beyond my skill level at this moment in time, but maybe someday.

Susan Poizner:

You know what though, Anna? I’m the biggest, I see myself as the biggest doofus in the world. I don’t know if that’s a word you use. That’s a word my husband talks about. I’m like, I’m not good at stuff, but if I manage to teach myself grafting, anybody can learn it. I promise you that.

Anna Sakawsky:

Totally.

Susan Poizner:

But there’s also something I want to say. We talked earlier about root stocks. They contribute quite a lot. And I said to you that when you plant a seed, you’re probably going to have to wait five to seven years for the tree to fruit. If you buy a grafted tree, you’re not going to have to wait five to seven years. And partly because sometimes the rootstock will contribute a quality of early fruiting. In fact, what I ask people to do when they plant a new fruit tree, cherries not so much though you could still do it with cherries. You plant a new fruit tree, whether you, hopefully you got a bear root tree from a specialist fruit tree nursery, maybe you got it from the big box store. I’m not a big fan and we can talk about why. But either way, for the first two years, I would suggest you remove every single piece of fruit that forms on that tree because they are precocious.

They do want to produce fruit, especially if they’re grafted onto a good root stock, but you want a tree that will last a long time and be healthy and productive. So instead of the little young tree pushing its energy into the little fruitlets, you want that tree to push its energy into expanding its root system, right? So that’s what you want. It’s a short-term sacrifice, but long-term benefit.

Anna Sakawsky:

Yeah, that makes total sense. And again, having some gardening under my belt, I mean, we do that. We even do that with annuals. We pinch off the flowers from our tomato and pepper plants at the beginning of the season before they take roots so that they can put their energy into that. And then later on, we let them do that. I don’t know why the fruit trees and berry bushes and that sort of thing, it’s like more hesitant about. I’m like, I don’t want to damage them because they’re perennials and that sort of thing. This is actually the first year that I really gave my blueberry plants, like a really proper pruning because we’ve had them for a few years now and they’re just like a little. And now that I’ve learned actually a lot of this from you and the fruit trees, and then we did this with our elderberry plants last year where we cut them almost all the way down.

I’m like, oh my God, they were the most productive they’ve ever been. But still, I go now and I’ve pruned them right back again and I’m like, “Oh no, what if I killed them?” And I’m sure that they’ll take off again. You always have this hesitation, but with pinching off the fruits and everything, again, with blueberries, with other plants, that’s recommended as well until they get established, right? Okay. Before we get into all that, because we will cover all this, but I do want to back up a little bit and just kind of talk about like, we’re just getting started. So if somebody is interested in growing fruit trees, has never done it before, they’re excited about it, they want to go buy a fruit tree, plant it in the ground, what are the first things they need to know or decide before they just go like a kid in a candy shop to the garden center and buy a fruitry?

Susan Poizner:

Absolutely. And by the way, I’ve been there, done that, bought the t-shirt, so please don’t run to the garden center or the big box store and get the trees that are on sale. They’re so pretty and there’s so much love and hope connected to them. But if you take your time and do your research first, it doesn’t take a long time. It would take a weekend. Then what you can do is sit and decide, first of all, what type of fruit you want to grow. That’s important. Are you going to cook with it? Do you want to eat it raw? Do you want to make it into cider? Because different cultivars shine in different ways. Once you decide what you want, then you decide, how much care do I want to give this tree? Because some fruit trees are easier to grow than others. So fruit trees have a series of diseases like just a number of diseases that they get.

And I always say again and again, fruit trees are like kids in kindergarten. When one tree gets sick, it goes from tree to tree, spreads around the neighborhood. So you want to get, if possible, disease resistant cultivars, and they exist, but you’re not going to get them at the garden center and you’re not going to get them at the big box store. Where I would suggest is going to find your local fruit tree nursery and downloading their catalog on orchardpeople.com/nursery or something like that. I have a list of nurseries across North America and the UK and Ireland, but there may be more and look carefully at what they have and have a look. In the description, if a tree is resistant to common diseases, it’ll say, they will shout it from the rooftops, “This tree is resistant to fire blight or black knot or powdery mildew.” They will say that.

If it doesn’t say anything, it’s not resistant. So that’s another thing you want to think about. You want to think about cross-pollination. I’ve had people come up to me and say, “Oh my gosh, I planted like a plum tree seven years ago and it flowers, but I’ve not gotten any fruit at all. ” And it turns out that they don’t have a pollination partner for that tree. So they have a beautiful, healthy tree they’ve loved and cared for, but no fruit. So it’s a little adventure as you go through step by step to figure out what is the right tree for you. So just to say that this year, this spring, I’m publishing my next book, which is called Designing a Fruit Tree Garden: How to Choose Fruit Trees That Thrive in Your Climate and Space. And it’s kind of fun. I did it as an interactive adventure as I take you guys through step by step, choosing your tree and then figuring out, okay, will it produce fruit?

Is it disease resistant? Maybe I want to swap it out with something else. And then, how am I going to plant it? Do I want a high density planting with lots of trees in a small space, which is by the way, a really cool idea or do I want it decorative where you get less fruit, but it’s kind of beautiful. There’s so many options and it really doesn’t take a lot of time to think about it. By the end of the book, you know exactly what trees you want, you know they will produce fruit, you know they will be easier to grow and you know how you’re going to plant them and you know what kind of root stock you need. So that research is essential and just choosing the right tree will get rid of 60% of the problems that you would have had if you had planted trees from the big box store and just waited to see what happens.

Anna Sakawsky:

Makes sense. I mean, what do they say, right? An ounce of prevention’s worth a pound of cure. Oh

Susan Poizner:

God,

Anna Sakawsky:

Yes. I mean, I imagine that’s like tenfold with fruit trees because they take a while to establish and to produce everything, right? I know one of the banes of my existence is having to move perennials when you’re like, “Oh man, I planted this in the wrong spot or it’s

Susan Poizner:

Competing

Anna Sakawsky:

With this or whatever.” And then you kind of have to do this bit of a restarting process. I can imagine that that’s like, again, tenfold with fruit trees, right? If you have to move a fruit tree or you do something wrong off the bat or plant in the wrong space or whatever. Okay. So when it comes to actually choosing fruit trees, I mean, obviously there’s different types of fruit trees, right? There’s your apples, your pears, your plums, your cherries, depending on where you live, maybe peaches, that sort of thing. So outside of choosing, I mean, I would imagine the first choice you want to make is like, what fruit do you actually like to eat? Don’t plant a cherry tree if you don’t like cherries, but then there are many different varieties as well. And a lot of them are not necessarily varieties everybody’s familiar with because they’re not always the type of varieties that we see in the supermarkets, right?

The Macintosh apples and Granny Smith’s and that sort of thing. So how do you know what types of fruit trees to choose for your property? How do you start that research or figure that out?

Susan Poizner:

Well, I love how you said that because we can start with what not to choose. Don’t go for the ones in the supermarket. That is a no-brainer. People love Honeycrisp apples. They are so hard to grow. And that’s why, by the way, they’re very expensive because professional growers don’t like growing them either and they’re very fiddly. But don’t go for the ones in the supermarket. And I know that, oh, I’m familiar with how it tastes and therefore I don’t want to take a chance. I get that. But the reason those trees, those fruits are in the supermarket is because they’re easy to ship, because they stay, I don’t know, good for longer. There’s lots of reasons, but they have nothing to do with your own homestead. They have to do with big industrial farming. So don’t go for those. Again, when you have your fruit tree nursery catalog in front of you, you will see descriptions of all different types of fruit.

And I get it if people say, “It’s not enough for me to read a description saying that this is crunchy, juicy and sweet. Everybody loves it because you may not love that particular flavor or it says tart with a little bit of blah, blah, or whatever it is. ” What I like to do is every fall, I look around for apple tastings at local fruit tree nurseries. Lots of them do it where you go, you line up and you have a little piece of the various different apples. So you talk about cultivars nobody’s ever heard of Liberty Apple, pristine apple, freedom apple, those three, sweet 16, those are cultivars that are easier to grow because they’re disease resistant, but you’re not going to get them in the supermarket. So how do you know if you’re going to like the taste? I would say if you’re in a rush this year and you’ve got some space and you want to start planting one or two trees and then continue on later, that’s fine.

Still do your research, but make sure in the fall that you go to some fruit tastings to taste. Also in the fruit, in the catalogs, for instance, under cherries, they’re going to describe, is this a pie cherry? That means basically in code that you’re not going to want to eat this cherry right off the tree, right? Or is it a sweet cherry? Is it a dessert apple, which means it’s a fresh eating apple. All of this, and in my book I talk about, but it’s all kind of code. In a compact little paragraph, they’re telling you a lot about the fruit. So with apples, I would say it’s great to taste them, though I will tell you my favorite disease resistant apple is a pristine apple, flat out, okay? Though there’s lots of other great ones. Cherries, like you did, you took a chance. I think they’re all great.

You know what I mean? They’re all great as long as you know that the tart cherries are for baking and the sweet cherry. Peaches, there is not as much genetic diversity in peaches as there are in apples. So while I think it would be wonderful if people did their research in advance, figured out which are disease resistance, which are firmer, which are free stone, whatever, whatever they’re looking for, but there’s a little less diversity and flavors, but it’s the area where you’re going to get a lot of diversity as apples and plums and other types of fruit too.

Anna Sakawsky:

Yeah. Interesting that you mentioned the apple tastings. I don’t know if we have something like that here, but where we live, so just for anybody listening, so Susan, you are in the Toronto area, is that right?

Susan Poizner:

Yep.

Anna Sakawsky:

And I’m on Vancouver Island, but we have something in our community that is basically a gleaning organization. So a lot of people here have fruit trees in their backyard, that sort of thing. A lot of people have bought houses that already had established fruit trees and they don’t really want to deal with the harvest when it comes on. There’s all this fruit that comes and then if it falls, then it attracts animals into the yard and all. So they just want somebody, a lot of them are maybe elderly and they don’t want to deal with it. They just want somebody to come and take it. So we have this awesome organization called Lush Valley here that I have volunteered with before and they go around and they glean. So gleaning is basically gathering the harvest, the extra or unwanted harvest. And a lot of that has to do with the fruit trees around here.

So they go, people can call up and be like, “Hey, I got a fruit tree. I don’t want to deal with it. Can you come take it? ” And the way it works, if this works for the homeowner is the volunteers go out, they gather the fruit, the homeowner gets a third if they want it. The volunteers get to divvy up about a third of the harvest between them, and then a third goes to the food bank or all the excess, because we get so many apples in our area, they process it into cider and then they sell it and then the money goes towards the food bank and local food initiatives and that sort of thing. So that’s just a really cool thing that we have in our area. But I have looked this up and I know that those type of organizations exist across North America too.

So it’s worth looking into. Not only can you get a bit of a harvest out of that yourself, usually for free if you go just volunteer your time, but then you get a chance to taste a bunch of these different types of varieties that are more kind of backyard varieties. And usually, like I know with this organization, they’ll tell you, “We’ve got a Grabenstein pick coming up or whatever.” And then you get to go and you get to try some of those apples and go, “Oh, I really like this one or that’s not my favorite.” So maybe if you get the chance to do that as well, it’s a way to kind of get a bit of a harvest, volunteer in your community, and then also get to taste some of these things. And they do this again with all cherry trees, pear trees, plum trees, all the different fruit trees around here, and you get to kind of taste it that way too.

So something we’ll look into.

Susan Poizner:

That’s a lot of fun. And also near you, you have the Salt Spring Island Apple Festival. And if you can get away from your homestead, that’s worth a trip that you get to taste all sorts of fantastic cultivars. And I know in the United States there’s probably also some big ones. So if you guys want to do a little tourism and take a trip somewhere fantastic and just try all those cultivars. I love doing that. It’s one of my favorite things.

Anna Sakawsky:

Oh, that’s really cool. I didn’t know about the Salt Spring Island one. I haven’t been to Salt Spring in years.That’d be very fun one to go

Susan Poizner:

To. Oh, it is. I know it is. I’ve spent time there. I didn’t go to the festival, but they have such a wide range of apples there. It’s a very good climate for apple growing and they’re proud of what they have and you’ll get to taste everything.

Anna Sakawsky:

Awesome. Okay. So the next thing I want to touch on is kind of just the space, right? So before we go planting any fruit trees, you had mentioned that you can actually plant fruit trees quite close together. How much space do fruit trees actually need and what should people consider when it comes to spacing and location on their property?

Susan Poizner:

Such a good question. And again, it’s a brilliant question to think about before you plant your tree and even before you order the tree. So how much space your tree needs depends on the root stalk that it’s grafted onto. So root stocks are generally called like dwarfing root stocks. That’s a little small tree that won’t get bigger than maybe seven or 10 feet tall. It also probably won’t be super strong. So if you have kids or pets running around in your garden and they knock into the tree, it could break it. So you often have to support those or use them in specific situations where you have a trellis for them. So that’s dwarfing trees. Then there’s semi-dwarfing trees and dwarfing trees could be planted maybe if they’re freestanding, just let them spread out maybe 10 feet apart, less if you’ve put them in a high density situation.

We can talk about that in a minute. Then they’re semi-dwarfing trees and they sound like they’re also going to be small, but they’re not. They’re bigger and they are great. For instance, in our park where I planted our community orchard, we wanted trees that kids could climb, but we On a trees that weren’t going to be 40 feet high so that we couldn’t harvest and prune them. So that’s semi-dwarfing. They might be 20 feet tall depending on what you’re growing. They could be less, they could be more. And you’d want to plant those 15, 16 feet apart, something like that. Then there is standard trees. And standard trees are on a tough root stock. So if you’re in an environment with a lot of wind or with soil that’s a little bit too hard clay, you need roots that are going to push their way out into that soil.

You need tough roots. So you might want to go for a standard tree. Now standard trees can get really big. And so they will be hard to climb, but to harvest and spray and stuff. But with correct pruning, you should be able to keep them more compact depending on where you live. Anyways, standard trees are good for long-lasting trees. They can live a hundred years, for instance, because they’re so tough. So if you have a space somewhere and you want to maybe get a beautiful crab apple tree that will pollinate your other trees, something that you can leave as a legacy to your kids, grandkids, and to nature, because nature, certain insects love older trees. So those have a place in a garden too if you’ve got enough space. Now, they would need to be much further apart because they grow so big and tall.

When you think about how far apart your trees are going to be planted, you need to think about how wide the canopy is going to get. And the bigger your rootstock, the wider the canopy. You don’t want trees side by side to be fighting each other for space and light. You don’t want the branches to rub up against each other. So those are the reasons that freestanding trees need to be spaced very thoughtfully. Just to say that if you did go for a standard tree and you lived in an incredibly rugged environment with wind and high elevation, you may find that that standard tree is so busy standing up to the elements, it won’t get to be that huge size. So all of this is guidance. It depends on warmer climates, maybe they grow bigger and stuff like that. And again, that’s all in my book, Designing a Fruit Tree Garden.

I talk about that. So in terms of spacing as well though, those little dwarfing trees we talked about, they don’t live as long, but they are really flexible. So you could grow them as a freestanding tree, or there are a couple of other options. You could grow them high density like many modern orchards grow their fruit trees. So these days, orchards are growing their fruit trees almost like grapes in a vineyard. They are supported against a trellis. There’s not a lot of pruning, but you can plant your apple trees on a dwarfing rootstock, maybe even four feet apart. You could have, in the same space, you might have two larger trees, you could have 10 or more different cultivars ensuring that the harvest is available at different times in the growing season. Sometimes people call this like a cider orchard because they used to do this for cider apples, but that gives you so much flexibility.

And instead of pruning your trees, there is some pruning, but there’s more training. You are pulling the branches downwards and tying them to the trellis. And you do have to prune to make sure that the trees don’t fight with each other because they’re all side by side. You don’t want them rubbing up to each other. So high density plantings are really interesting. In a proper orchard, these trees would only be left for 15 years and then their fruitfulness declines and they would replace them with another tree. I don’t know if anybody has tested and could you leave them for 25 years? Yes, they would be less fruitful, but that might be fine. You maybe don’t need all that fruit all the time. So that’s an option. And then of course, there’s the fun option of Espalier, which is beautiful decorative plantings also with dwarfing trees, also tying them up to a trellis or a wall.

And it’s very beautiful, but it’s fiddly. You need to be somebody who loves puttering in the garden, you’ll prune it like three times a year or something.

Anna Sakawsky:

Okay. We’re thinking about doing that with an apple. We haven’t bought our apple yet, so this is good actually because we would like to buy it this spring. And we’re thinking of a door variety. We don’t have a large property. We only have a quarter acre and our whole garden, everything is in the front yard because that’s where we get all of our sun. And we’ll have two septic tanks in our yard, one for our house and one for our rental. So we’re limited as to what we can plant as far as fruit trees and things that have extensive root systems. So we have our little cherry in one area and we have a grapevine that we are training along a fence along our yard. And then we would like to do a dwarf apple variety that we want to espelier or train along the fence from the other side.

And it’s funny because I’ve always wondered that when we travel into the interior of the province, there’s a lot of vineyards and orchards. And I always see these apple trees, like you mentioned, that are really high density, only a few feet apart, and they’re like six feet tall. But they’re loaded with apples. And so I’ve always wondered, well, what are they doing? You don’t see apple trees grow like that in the wild. So are those dwarf varieties that then they’re also pruning to keep them that short and then they’re just really high density fruit production in that little space?

Susan Poizner:

It’s fabulous. There’s science there. Okay. So yes, this is a newfangled way to grow. Fruit trees, yes, it’s only possible because we now have so many different amazing dwarfing root stocks, but it is incredible. Their goal is fruit production. They need to make money. They don’t want to pay a lot of money to have people on ladders harvesting. They don’t want to spend a ton of time pruning. They do have to do some pruning, but it’s not very specialist. It’s just pruning between the trees to make sure they don’t fight with each other. But what they’re doing by pulling branches down, the fruitfulness of a branch depends on the angle that it grows at. Okay? It has to do with a hormone called oxen. So oxon is a hormone that sort of gathers at the tips of branches and it tells that branch, grow outward, give me more branch.

And it suppresses the lateral buds or the side buds on that branch, which by the way, would’ve been fruit, especially with apples. So it’s dominating. The oxen is saying, “Hey, grow longer, don’t grow more fruit.” So oxen, those branches, they kind of aspire to reach to the sky sometimes or to reach out. But by pulling each branch a little bit below horizontal, you’re tricking the oxen and the oxen sort of diminishes and it maybe redistributes itself along the branch so that it no longer suppresses the lateral buds. So all of a sudden these lateral buds are not being dominated by oxens who say, “Do not do anything. I’m growing longer. That’s what I need to do. ” And instead, you get lots of blossoms. You get branches, you get blossoms, you get fruit. So the whole philosophy behind high density plantings is pull those branches down to just a little below horizontal.

Keep pulling them down. You don’t even prune very much. Whereas when you have a beautiful freestanding tree, you need a really open canopy for various reasons, for good air circulation, to prevent disease, and to make sure that sunlight reaches every branch so each fruit can grow and ripen properly. So this is a different technique. And again, you’re tricking the hormones so that it would be heavy with fruit. And it will be heavy with fruit starting from year, let’s say three or four, going to year 15. And then after that, it will be little less fruitful as the years go on. So you may decide to replace in a staggered manner if you always want lots of fruit or you may leave some of the oldies and see what happens as long as they’re healthy.

Anna Sakawsky:

Okay. Yeah. I mean, there’s obviously a lot of science that’s fascinating. I don’t want to overwhelm any listeners thinking like, “Oh my God, tricking hormones. I got to do this. ” So again, let’s get back to, if somebody’s new to this and they’re just wanting to plant a fruit tree or two, right? We can talk about cross pollination just a sec, but we want to get it in the ground. So we obviously have to think about spacing and whether it’s a dwarf, semi-dwarf, standard tree, that sort of thing. What other things should we think about when it comes to the location of where we want to plant a fruit tree on our property?

Susan Poizner:

Absolutely. Great point. Okay. So fruit trees, like the conventional ones we’re talking about, apples, pears, apricots, peaches, cherries, they need full sun. They love full sun. So sometimes whenever I see a fruit tree planted in a shady garden, they always look really sad and they don’t ever produce terrific fruit. And I’ve even seen this in our own orchard now. It is a park and there are some trees that were younger at the time that we planted our trees in the only space that we could. And now those other trees are shading our trees. And so our trees are less productive some of them in those locations. So that’s kind of sad. Saying that, if you live in a really, really hot climate like Arizona or somewhere really hot, then what happens is you grow these fruit trees in full sun. Let’s say it’s an apple tree and the actual apples will cook on the branches because it’s way too hot for them.

So there are certain situations where you might even want a little bit of shade for your tree. It’ll be dappled shade, not full shade. It’s not under an oak tree, maybe under something like a Kentucky coffee tree with little tiny leaves or something like that. But mostly in most cooler climates, full sun. And the less sun your tree gets, the less fruit you will get. Just know that. And the less luscious and lovely your tree will look. You need access to water. You need to be watering those trees, especially when they’re young. And I know that other community orchards in Toronto, they’d say, “Hey, we want to plant an orchard in our local ravine. It’s fantastic. We got this space.” And I’m like, “Great. Where’s the water going to come from?” Because fruit trees don’t have teeth. They can’t take nutrition in or liquid in from the soil, first of all, if the liquid isn’t there, but they can’t chew on the nutrition in the soil.

They need everything in liquid form to come into its roots. So if a tree doesn’t have water, it will be starving basically. So you need irrigation and you need, I always say room for roots to grow. If it’s a freestanding tree and it’s not a dwarfing tree, give the tree room. Don’t plant. I really don’t like it when people plant hostas and stuff around their fruit trees or even strawberries because young fruit trees do not compete well for water and nutrition. They just don’t. Again, they’re these little frankin trees. They’re made up of two trees. They’re grafted. Give them the best start that you can. And yeah, those are a few tips.

Anna Sakawsky:

Okay. Yeah. Well, and I would just say one other thing that I know we considered, because we are working with a pretty small space, like I said, we have two septic tanks. We’ve got a raised bed garden, we’ve got an in- ground guard bed. There’s all these things, the factors that we need to consider. We couldn’t just necessarily put a fruit tree anywhere, but we kind of have this space along the side. And we had to also consider, we were thinking about placing a little bit closer to the front of our property, but we also thought, but when this tree grows in, it’s also going to provide shade. And if it’s near the front of the property and the sun’s coming up near the front, then that’s going to shade the garden beds behind it. So we decided to move it back. So now that shade hopefully won’t shade the garden bed, right?

The shade will be cast towards the house. So that’s just another factor is it’s not just for the fruit tree, you want to make sure that you have full somebody you also have to consider. It might be small when you’re putting it in, but it’s going to get bigger and it’s also going to provide shade. So where is that shade going to be cast and is that going to be a problem as well?

Susan Poizner:

Exactly. And that’s why some people do opt for a spalier or high density because those are not trees that are going to shade anything. They would actually make a nice boundary for a big, even veggie garden like they did in the old days. So smaller trees are really important to consider if you don’t want it to overshade your whole garden. And that’s the beauty of root stocks. Again, when you go to a garden center, they often don’t even tell you what rootstock your tree is on. It’s just a big surprise when you take it home. Is it going to be a little tree or is it going to be a huge tree? You have no idea. Whereas with fruit tree nurseries, under the cultivar you want, let’s say you want a liberty apple tree, it’ll say, “This comes on two different root stocks. The M9 is the dwarfing rootstocks or whatever it is, the B9, and they will tell you, which size do you want?

And we’ll give you the size you need.” Yeah.

Anna Sakawsky:

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We don’t have room for a whole bunch of different trees, but as I … Well, first of all, are all fruit trees cross-pollinating or do any of them self-pollinate?

Susan Poizner:

No, they’re not all cross-pollen. That’s the beauty of it all, right? So for people like you who have … I only have room for one tree, I’ll put it on a dwarfing root stock, but I don’t have room for two. What do I do? Well, a lot of peach trees are self-pollinating. Our apricot trees are self-pollinating. Sometimes sour cherry trees can be self-pollinating. Sweet cherry often are cross-pollinating. That’s why you got your multi-fruit cherry tree because all the different branches are going to pollinate each other.

Anna Sakawsky:

Well, and that was another question of mine is if you have something that’s got multiple different varieties grafted on, do they cross-pollinate?

Susan Poizner:

Absolutely. They cross-pollinate each other. So-

Anna Sakawsky:

Because I actually remember that I actually used to work at a little school and there was an apple tree and it was having issues with pollination. It wasn’t producing. And so somebody had actually come and grafted another branch on from their apple tree and so that it would cross-pollinate itself. So I always thought that was really interesting.

Susan Poizner:

That’s so clever. Yes, so indeed. Now, apple trees are very rarely, if ever, cross-pollinating. So you need more than one for an apple tree. Okay.

Anna Sakawsky:

So they’re very-

Susan Poizner:

They do not. They need

Anna Sakawsky:

To cross-pollinate.

Susan Poizner:

Yeah, they don’t. Sorry, they don’t self-pollinate. So you would need to. Now, sometimes people say, “Okay, well, I really like, for instance, I don’t know, Macintosh apple trees. So I’ll get two Macintosh apple trees.” So the question is, will the two Macintosh apple trees pollinate each other? What do you think, Anna?

Anna Sakawsky:

Oh, I don’t know. No, maybe no, because they’re the same variety. They need to

Susan Poizner:

Be different varieties. Exactly. They’re clones. Well,

Anna Sakawsky:

I know that because our elderberries, that was what we got too because we learned that they need to cross pollinate. And we got, I think one’s called a york and one’s called a nova. We were told get those two different varieties because they will cross pollinate. You don’t want two the same.

Susan Poizner:

So you need for the cross-pollinating ones, which are most apples, which are most pears, lots of types of plums are cross-pollinating. Sweet cherries are often cross-pollinating. So for those, you need to choose two trees that are not the same cultivar and that they flower at the same time. The blossoms open at the same time. So sometimes what people do is they look for a pollination chart online, which will tell them, okay, liberty apples and freedom apples, let’s say for instance, flour at the same time, so they will cross pollinate each other. So that’s a good partnership or whatever. That’s what they have these pollination charts for. Yeah. But self-pollinating ones, you don’t have to worry about it. If in your fruit tree catalog, you’re looking through the catalog and it says self-pollinating or self-fertile, you’re good to go. You take it home. Now, if you have a Macintosh apple tree and your neighbor two doors down has a honey crisp apple tree, do you need to get a second apple tree?

Anna Sakawsky:

Maybe not.

Susan Poizner:

Maybe not. If the bees find both of them. I think that’s what

Anna Sakawsky:

We’re also thinking about because our neighbors, we’re on a cul-de-sac and there’s two or three neighbors that also have cherries in their backyard. So I’m like, “Oh, okay. So probably ours will be fine no matter what because we’re all in close enough proximity that the bees and the pollinating insects are going to be going back and forth to those anyway.”

Susan Poizner:

So

Anna Sakawsky:

That is something to consider. If you’re really close to a neighbor that has another apple tree or another cherry tree or whatever it is, that can provide that cross pollination granted that that tree blossoms at the same time and is a variety that can cross pollinate. But I know, for example, in our area, there are so many people with apple trees and that sort of thing that you can probably get away with just one variety. But to your point, if you’ve got a bigger property, you don’t have anything close by, you may need two of your own. That’s why we got the two elderberries because I don’t think anybody here is actually growing elderberries. So we needed to make sure we had two of our own that were going to cross pollinate.

Susan Poizner:

Yeah. And again, I hear you about not freaking people out. I remember when we started our orchard right now, it’s intuitive for me. I’ve done this for enough time and I see it as a game and as a puzzle to find the right partnerships for trees. But I remember when the park supervisor was talking me through about how I needed to choose trees that cross pollinate and he was, I don’t even remember if he talked about disease resistance, but it just seemed like this big puzzle and I was like so overwhelmed. And so it took me a few years until I’m like, “Oh no, don’t worry. It’s like six steps. Choose the fruit you want, decide if they’re going to cross pollinate, figure out if it’s disease resistant, figure out when your harvest time is so that you don’t get all the fruit in one month.” And then it’s just like six steps, but all of these steps are just important.

So again, not to freak people out, just take it step by step. It’s worth thinking about it in advance because then you’re sorted no surprises.

Anna Sakawsky:

Right. Yes. Okay. So we’re doing the planning and prep work in advance. We’re feeling confident. We’re ready to go get our fruit tree or trees, put them in the ground. So first of all, when is the best time to actually plant fruit trees? And then second of all, what should we do at the time of planting? Should we just dig a hole in the ground where we want it to go? Should we be amending the soil? Should we be doing soil tests? What should we be doing at planting time?

Susan Poizner:

Good questions. Okay. So if you are buying your tree from a fruit tree nursery, you’re going to buy a bear root tree. And lots of people have done that and know what it is. But basically a bear root tree is dug out of the nursery when it’s dormant, no leaves, no fruit, no blossoms, no nothing. It is totally dormant. This happens either in the late fall or the early spring. Then they wrap up those roots with a bit of damp mulch and then seal it in a plastic bag and they ship it out to you. So you get this little bear root tree in the early spring or in the late fall. Both are very appropriate times to plant. Depending on your climate, I like doing them in the spring personally, but I like to think about you plant your tree and then it has the summer to settle in before the next winter.

So that’s what I would do. But some people are very happy planting in the fall. That’s when you plant the tree. How you plant the tree. As much as possible, I don’t really amend the soil, but I do test the soil first. And the easiest test you can do, I do a few things, is just dig a hole in your garden, just take a shovel and dig a hole and feel the soil. If it takes you half an hour to dig a hole that’s like one foot deep and two feet wide, or maybe like two feet deep and two feet wide, let’s say. If it takes you half an hour, it’s probably not a good place for a fruit tree. You work too hard, right? If it doesn’t- Those roots

Anna Sakawsky:

Are going to have trouble penetrating the

Susan Poizner:

Soil. Yeah. Even if you put fabulous, put in some nice little bit of compost or whatever, nice triple mix to make it nice for the tree. If the soil is that hard, it’s going to grow like it was in a pot and your roots will circle around and they’ll basically, it’ll kill itself because it sort of strangles itself. So that’s not a good place to plant your tree. If the shovel goes in well and you put your hand on the soil and it forms into balls nicely, or you can make a ribbon out of the soil, then it’s just like, “Whoa, okay. I think I have a pretty good place for my tree.” So again, the tree roots are going to need to go down at least 12 inches, at least a foot, maybe more depending on what it is, but they also go wide.

So do a nice wide hole. And then the second thing that if you can, that I would do, and I would highly recommend doing a little soil test, sending some of the soil to a lab and telling them specifically what type of tree you are going to grow. And what this does is they ask them, “Please give me recommendations for amendments so that this area will be good for fruit trees.” And they’ll send you suggestions. They’ll say, “Your soil is good, but you need a little of this, a little of that. ” That’s a nice thing to amend before you plant your tree, if possible, if possible. But if you felt the soil and the texture is good and you’re super keen to plant this year, you can do that too. It’s just, yeah. Yeah. And there was a third part to that question. How to plant … Oh, maybe I answered it all.

I don’t remember.

Anna Sakawsky:

Well, I was just wondering too, so if you’re planting … So you’re saying bear roots are better than potted.

Susan Poizner:

Oh, yes.

Anna Sakawsky:

Why is that? Because I feel like we did a lot of things wrong with our first for tree without it was potted. You

Susan Poizner:

And me too, girl, like same thing, same thing. So

Anna Sakawsky:

Why is bear root better? And then when you’re planting that, should you just fill it back in with whatever the soil was there? You said don’t necessarily amend it, but adding just compost, what should we be doing with bear root and why are bear roots better?

Susan Poizner:

Okay. Bear roots are better because they adapt better to your environment. They grow quicker, so they make up for it. And because they’re younger, when you buy a bare root fruit tree, it’s sometimes just a whip which is a one year old tree. All you’ll see is like a little chute with some, not a chute, but like one branch with roots. You’ll even see where the graft union is. So the reason that is so fantastic is you plant that tree and it doesn’t have a root system that’s girdled and circling around and it’s not spoiled by some potting mix that it’s planted in and it’s not too old. When you go to the garden center, they want to show you a tree that looks like a tree. Maybe even it has an apple growing on it. Who knows? They’re trying to show you what is the possibility.

What could this be? They’re taking advantages of your dreams. Okay. Whereas your little bearroot tree won’t do that. It’s very honest. It’s saying, “You know what? I’m a baby, but like a baby, you can mold me into exactly what you need me to be. ” And you can just be kind to me right from the beginning. So you plant your tree, mostly you can add maybe a little bit of triple mix or something, nothing too, you don’t want to put manure in there that could burn the roots, nothing too harsh and pat it down and just put a mulch circle of wood chips on top or even that sometimes is not necessary, but just very simple, water it in. And the other thing I forgot to say is I often pour water into the hole and then let it drain down, then do my planting and then water it again.

Now, if you dig a hole and you pour water in the hole and it never drains, that’s another good sign that that’s not a good location for your fruit tree because fruit trees need well drained soil. So you pat it down. Now, this is the thing you were mentioning before about pruning. We want to be so kind to this little baby tree, right? Like, oh, I wouldn’t want to prune it because I don’t want to herd it. I don’t want to cut it. It’s just a little baby, right? But that’s when your opportunity is to shape the tree into a strong fruit bearing structure that will last a lifetime. So when you plant a bare root tree, tuck those roots into the ground, it’s a dormant season, it’s a dormant tree. Let’s say it’s the spring, you wouldn’t do this in the fall, you then do the very first pruning cut.

And if it’s just one branch, you cut off the top third just past a bud. And what that does is the growing season that follows all those lateral buds, you’re actually cutting off oxygen hormones at the top, which we talked about. The lateral buds come to life and say, “Woo, let’s grow.” And you start to get the shape of the tree coming forward. The following year, you get to choose which branches you’re going to keep. And that’s the time the tree that will heal those cuts so quickly. It’s just a soft young branch. If you wait till your tree is seven years old before you prune it, those pruning cuts will not heal quickly. That’s an older tree. It’s already lignified. You can and will still prune at that age, but you don’t want to do big cuts then, that’s for sure.

Anna Sakawsky:

Okay. So you want to prune the first, as soon as you put it in the ground, you don’t want to give it a year or anything like that. Yeah, if it’s ringing. If it’s spring. Yeah. Okay. And then I know because you have written about this for us, for the magazine before about pruning fruit trees, about actually shaping them, because there are different ways to shape fruit trees as well. So there’s kind of pruning them open, which is kind of in a, if you want to visualize it like a chalice almost, where the middle is open and you kind of got branches growing out and up like a cup. And then you’ve got the central leader

Style of pruning where you’ve got one central liter branch kind of coming up the middle and then branches out from there. So how do you decide what shape you want? And then we won’t necessarily get into the specifics of the cuts because it’s kind of hard to do on a podcast. If you are subscribed to the magazine, I believe this was in, I think it was the May 2025 issue that you wrote this in, but you can also check out Susan’s work and orchardpeople.com to get more visuals because you have some really good graphs too that show how to do this. But when we’re just talking about like there are different shapes that you can prune your tree into, how do you decide what shape you want and why?

Susan Poizner:

Okay. So let’s talk about the two main shapes. And by the way, I have my book, Fruit Tree Pruning the Science and Art of Cultivating Healthy Fruit Trees, and I take you through it right from beginning to end, whether you’re pruning a young tree like this whip that you’ve just planted, bare root whip to an older tree that you’ve neglected for a few years or more, that’s fine. So the two shapes that I talk about in that book are the main ones for freestanding trees like open center, which is like that vase shape. Sometimes with the open center, what it is, is anywhere from just three to five main branches. And that open center allows the tree to dry out really quickly. So if you live in a damp climate, that’s a really good option because what you don’t want is the tree’s canopy to get wet and stay wet.

So if you let that tree, let’s say it is a cherry tree or a peach tree and you just let it grow and do whatever it wants and there’s a million branches all over the place and then the leaves fill the branches and then there’s fruit in there somewhere and then it rains and then maybe there’s a sunny day. Is the sun going to get in and penetrate the canopy and dry it out? No, it’ll get dark, it’ll get damp and it’ll be exactly the type of condition … That diseases love, especially fungal diseases. So it’s like a haven for fungal spores. You don’t want that. Contrast that with your vase shape, which is beautiful and open. So even if you live in a rainy climate, just one sunny day will dry out all those branches. That’s ideal. Also, some fruit trees like that shape.

Cherry trees just naturally seem to want to be in that shape. I’ve started my cherry trees in central leader form and they just keep telling me, “Nope, I want to be open center.” It just sort of, they talk to you, they tell you that. Then there is the central leader structure, which was very dominant in North America for 50 years. And when I learned, or more even, when I learned from my mentor who was a professional orchardist, he did all his trees, cherries, peaches, apples, pears, everything was central leader. It’s like a Christmas tree shape. So you have one strong leader like the middle of the tree, and then the branches are longer at the bottom and shorter as they go up, with lots of space in between tiers. So again, that allows air circulation because you do remove a lot of those branches to make sure there’s lots of room.

And it also guarantees, if you do it properly, that every single branch has equal access to sunshine. You don’t want a branch on top of another branch because the top branch will get the sun, the fruit will ripen properly and grow properly, but the one below won’t. You want consistently good fruit. So those are the two structures. On the whole, apples and pears really enjoy central leader. Though sometimes in the UK, they do grow apples as well in the open center format, but that’s because they have so much rain there.

Anna Sakawsky:

Okay. All right. Okay. And then when it comes to pruning, so you’re doing this at the beginning, obviously we want to do our pruning cut the first year when we plant. We want to continue to do that the second and probably third year and whatever as we’re shaping that tree. What about older trees or as they’re getting on in years, should we be pruning every year?

Susan Poizner:

Yeah.

Anna Sakawsky:

Or should we give it a break every once in

Susan Poizner:

A while?

Anna Sakawsky:

No,

Susan Poizner:

Every year you prune.This is horticulture. I say it in the sense of, let’s put it this way. You have an ongoing relationship with the tree to ensure it’s partnership between you and the tree. You want to ensure that it gets everything it needs so that it can produce yummy fruit for you. And then it’ll give you lots of fruit and it’ll be so happy and healthy. Okay? So yes, and the first three to five years are the most important time when you are building and sculpting the tree into the ideal structure. After that, you are just maintaining that shape. So there’s much less to do from year five onwards. In fact, with our orchard, we love the creative side of pruning. We love the thoughtfulness of thinking, where do I want the second tier to be or where do I want the next branch to be?

It’s really fun and we love it, but now the trees are older and we’re like, “Hi, is there anything we can do for you? ” We still go in and we still make some cuts to clean up air circulation and we might be shortening branches, but it’s not as creative as in the first five years. Now saying that, if you’ve planted a tree and you’ve neglected it for five years or 10 years, you can still go in and learn if you know the science behind it and look up and say, “Okay, I want to improve air circulation. I’m going to make a few cuts to make the tree healthier and improve the quality of the fruit that is possible to do with your pruning skills.” So don’t think that if you miss the first five years, it’s too late. It’s not.

Anna Sakawsky:

Yeah. Well, and that was another question I had is sometimes people are maybe new to growing fruit trees, but maybe they’ve moved onto a property where there’s already an established fruit tree or inherited one or somehow. Our very first fruit tree that we ever dealt with, I guess that we ever had on our property, our last property was a rental and there was like a hundred year old grab and seen apple tree. And that was amazing. It was actually how I learned to can. My first canning project was applesauce because this tree just produced so much fruit, but it was a big old beast of a tree. It’s funny, actually, we got a really bad snowstorm one year and the snow was so heavy. It broke the tree almost in half or it broke an entire limb off, but it was like half the tree.

There was a huge hole in the tree trunk and we thought, “Oh God, after a hundred years and this tree is like done now.” The owners, the homeowners were able to call, I guess it was arborists or whoever came out and they filled that trunk with like concrete.

Susan Poizner:

Oh shoot.

Anna Sakawsky:

I don’t know good or bad. I was just amazed at how the tree rebounded after that. I mean, I don’t know if the concrete was good or bad, but just the fact that it could lose basically an entire half of the tree, this big limb that came off. And I think the next year it didn’t really produce, but then the year after that, what was left was like a bumper crop again. So just all that to say, it’s just amazing how resilient they are.

Susan Poizner:

And what kind of rootstock do you think that tree had?

Anna Sakawsky:

A standard.

Susan Poizner:

Exactly. That is- Very arty standard restock. It was incredibly tough. A lifetime. And in the days that whoever planted that tree, that was common. You planted a tree for a hundred years. That’s just what you did. Now, if the tree had been pruned annually, it wouldn’t have gotten to that state because each year … So for instance, we had an ice storm, I think in 2013 in Toronto, and our trees were still pretty young, maybe five years old or something like that. There were big huge trees that fell all over the city, but our little young trees had ice all over them, not one branch broke because you are pruning to give your tree a strong structure that can support a heavy harvest. So this was like the trees were like, no problem. We don’t have a problem with this because we’re so balanced. It’s not a problem.

But it does show you that fruit trees can be so resilient and so generous.

Anna Sakawsky:

Well, and I almost thought of the fact that like, I mean, obviously we don’t want that to happen. You should be doing controlled pruning, but I think almost taking off that half maybe stimulated something in that tree where it was like, whoa. And because again, a couple years later it produced like gangbusters. And I’m like, maybe that was like a form of extreme pruning for the tree rebounded from that. And then it went crazy and produced a bunch of fruit. But if somebody does have an older tree, what type of cut should they be mainly? If they’re looking at this tree that probably hasn’t been pruned in years or even decades, should they just be kind of trying to thin it out? It’s probably beyond the point where you’re shaping it, but what kind of cuts should you be doing to kind of breathe some life back into this tree?

Susan Poizner:

Okay. So for an older tree, for every tree, there’s something you need to think about. And that’s when you prune the tree because if you prune in winter, it’s going to … And you’ve got, let’s say you’ve got an apple tree, it’s way too big, and you prune during the dormant season because you want to make it smaller. But then you find rats like the tree just grew twice as big as a result of my pruning cuts. So when you’re pruning an older tree, if you want to keep it smaller, nine times out of 10, you are probably 10 times out of 10, you’re going to prune it as a summer pruning project. So summer pruning will be after petalfall. Don’t ever prune apple trees when the blossoms are open because there’s a disease that spreads then called fireblight. So summer pruning slows down growth and winter pruning speeds it up.

So young trees, you do winter pruning. You want them to grow fast. Summer pruning slows them down. There’s a science behind it that I can explain as well, and I’ll briefly explain. In the winter, the fruit tree stores energy in its root system. So it’s preparing for the spring because it’s going to need to use that energy in the spring. So let’s say the tree has 10 branches. That energy, one tenth of the energy will go into each branch. That’s logical. But what happens if you as the pruner in the winter, late winter, you go and prune out three of those branches. It’s got the same pot of energy in the root system. Each of the remaining branches gets more of that share of energy so it can grow longer and stronger and produce more fruit. So take that old apple tree. It’s probably on a standard root stock.

It’s a tough old tree and it’s way too big. It’s shading everybody in the garden, so you want to make it smaller. So let’s say out of its hundred branches, you prune out 25 of them and it looks great. You’ve opened up air circulation, that’s fantastic. And then as the season goes, you’ll notice that the remaining branches are growing so much longer. And you’ve like, “Why did I do that? ” Do the same pruning in the summer after pedal fall. So what happens is, again, you’ve got that pot of energy that the tree has, the big old tree with a hundred branches. Don’t prune it in the winter. Let it blossom. It’s burning energy. Let it even produce baby fruitlets. It’s burning energy. By the time you are ready to prune it after pedal fall or even a little bit later, not later than mid-summer, it doesn’t have any energy.

It’ll have energy to do its other things it needs to do, but not to grow more wood.

Anna Sakawsky:

Right, because that’s already gone into those branches and then you’re

Susan Poizner:

Removing that.

Anna Sakawsky:

Exactly. Cut

Susan Poizner:

It off. Cut off fruitlets. You cut off all its productive stuff. So that’s one of the ways that you’re going to make an old neglected tree, slow it down. But the other thing that I like to do with an older tree is I go under the tree, look up at the canopy, and I say to myself, “What is the area that is most densely shaded? Where is the air circulation the worst?” And then I’ll go in there and instead of making a hundred little cuts, I’ll find one scaffold branch, so one branch that comes off the trunk of the tree that’ll have a lot of lateral branches coming off of it, like a broom, sort of, not really, but like a shrubby branch. And I will carefully and correctly using my pruning skills, cut that branch off just after the collar, which is where it heals from.

You remove the branch and as long as it’s not more than 25% of the living canopy of the tree, it’s safe. You remove the branch and whoops, you look up, you can see the sky, right? You can see that there is at least one area where air can penetrate. So if you do one cut like that a year for four years or something, you’ve already got way better air circulation and you’ll find the fruit is better quality and the tree is healthier. And if you do this in the summer, it’s not going to overcompensate by just growing more branches.

Anna Sakawsky:

Okay.That makes a lot of sense. I really enjoy learning the science behind some of these things because oftentimes you’re told we’ll do this or do that. But I’m like, if it doesn’t make sense in my brain, it’s hard to do it. I really need to understand like, well, why? Because I’ve heard about summer pruning before, but I’m like, usually you’re told to prune in the winter and like, well, I’ll just do it then. But I see that there’s different reasons why you might want to prune at different times of year then.

Susan Poizner:

Thank you for saying that, Anna, because I always thought that there was something wrong with my brain because- Oh no,

Anna Sakawsky:

I need to know. I need to know. I need

Susan Poizner:

To understand why I’m

Anna Sakawsky:

Doing what I’m doing.

Susan Poizner:

Before, when I was struggling in the early years with the orchard, all I wanted was to learn. I didn’t want to be, and I never was a full-time orchardist. I just planted a community orchard and I thought, “What is the minimum I need to do to keep these trees healthy and productive? I have other things I do in life. This is not what I have time to do. ” And I remember at the time looking for online courses, I found an online course in the UK that cost thousands of dollars for proper orchardist. I’m like, “I’m not taking that. ” And in the end, I had to use my journalistic skills that we talked about in the beginning, my filmmaking skills and teach myself why you do what you do. So every single book that I write, whether it’s fruit tree pruning or fruit tree grafting, I don’t teach anything unless I understand it.

So this new book I’m really excited about because it’s very hard, there’s an expression standing on one foot to teach people the steps to go through to choose the right fruit tree. But this is like really fun where it’s like, “Okay guys, go get a fruit tree nursery catalog and come back to the book on page three. We’re going to talk about choose three cultivars randomly, whatever you like and let’s see if they’re going to work.” And I just did it interactively because I like teaching. But man, if I don’t understand it, I can’t do it, I won’t do it, and I mess up anyways, even if I try. So science is beautiful. Science teaches us everything, and at some point it becomes intuitive. You just get it and you don’t have to look at the books anymore.

Anna Sakawsky:

Absolutely. Well, and like anything, right? Again, I’m new to growing fruit trees, so this is all very new for me, and I’m soaking in all of this knowledge as I’m trying to do it a little bit as well. But just like anything, like with gardening, that’s how it was at first. I was like, “Oh, I don’t know what I’m doing. I had to learn a bunch,” and then you just have to do it. And then now that I’ve been doing it for over a decade, I just kind of intuitively know some of these things or canning was one of those things. I mean, I was afraid to eat the first food that I canned and I did, oh my goodness, when I started pressure canning, I must have spent a good week of just researching botulism because I was terrified of it. I needed to understand exactly how it worked and exactly how to prevent it.

I threw away the very first green beans I ever can. Now that I understand the science behind it, and I’ve done it now a number of times, I can do it with my eyes closed, no problem. I don’t worry about it anymore. But I just find that for me, and maybe it’s our … I have a journalist background as well, so maybe that’s part of it. But I think when you can understand why you’re doing what you’re doing and you get that part of it as well, it just kind of sets you up, kind of like doing your planning and preparing before planting, right? If you do that work ahead of time and you really understand what you’re doing, then it just sets you up on a really strong foundation so that as you then are putting your hand to something and doing it, it makes a lot more sense and you’re making those neural connections in your brain or whatever, and it just seems to come together a lot quicker, right?

I

Susan Poizner:

Wonder as well if … I don’t know if our ancestors, I guess they didn’t understand what they were doing, but in terms of the science, but their parents and their grandparents showed them from generation to generation and they saw the results. So somewhere along the line, people figured out that open center, for instance, was a good way to grow fruit or central leader, and they just did it and they saw it worked, but we don’t want to have to wait generations and generations. So for folks like you and I, just teach me why, and then I can go ahead and be creative and push the boundaries even, but at least you get a head start and you don’t have to waste time.

Anna Sakawsky:

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean, I could pick your brain all day and I know that there are some things that I want to talk about that we’re kind of at time now, so fertilizing and watering and that sort of thing. We did touch on it a little bit. We talked about not necessarily adding too many amendments, but testing your soil and making sure that you have irrigation in place. One thing I will ask, because I feel like fruit trees, once you get them to a certain point, they are a little bit kind of set it and forget it, which is what makes them appealing rolling your eyes and

Susan Poizner:

Being like- More so, more so. But

Anna Sakawsky:

I would imagine that you have to be a lot more on top of things like making sure they’re really well irrigated and stuff when they’re new and they’re really trying to take root. And then after that, that you should obviously keep an eye on things, but that once their root system is established, should you still be watering your fruit trees in the summer, irrigating them or are they for the most part if you’re not in drought conditions, for example, and you’ve got a lot of rain over the winter and spring months, can they pretty much just soak up water from ground reserves?

Susan Poizner:

I love your question. I love the term set it in and forget it. Okay, I’ll tell you about our orchard, which is now older and there’s not as much for us to do. We do have a pollinator garden that we take care of. So we have a reason to go to the park and enjoy it. What you will do when they are more mature is a couple of things. The one thing that is so important is we do a dormant spray every year. It’s lime sulfur and dormant oil, and it’s just one spray that we do, but the timing is very precise. You have to read the box, but it’s like the temperature is just around freezing and not below. The buds have to be closed, tightly closed. You can’t see any tissue coming out of the buds. You spray the trees and it suffocates over wintering insects.

If you set it and forget it and forget that particular spray, you may not have a fun year in your garden because the tree will be a little bit more vulnerable to pests. Every year we prune the trees, but like I say, there’s less pruning to do. And as the trees get older, we do summer pruning because we don’t want them to grow much bigger. So that’s easy. But what is important is scouting and recognizing diseases and pests so that you can nip them in the bud. So you don’t just never look at your tree. You look at it. If you see something, you take it seriously. If they’re orange spots or if there are sort of an olive green spots on the leaves or on the fruit or if something’s happening, you want to keep an eye on it. And there’s a few little easy tricks you can do to protect the fruit from pests.

So it’s way much like the maintenance is much, much less, I miss it, I miss the excitement of the baby trees, but there’s a few things you’ll keep your eye on. Does that answer your question?

Anna Sakawsky:

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And yeah, you’re right. I mean, it certainly does fruit trees obviously need some care and attention at all stages of their life, but I think with most perennials, again, it’s that kind of getting them established the first few years, pruning shaping, getting the root system established, and then it’s a little bit more … It’s not like they need as much attention as years go on. So that’s kind of the nice thing about them.

Susan Poizner:

Yeah. And as for watering, just during a drought, once they’re older, especially if they’re on a semi-dwarf or standard root stock, the roots stretch out so much. They’re really quite resilient, but if it’s a drought, you absolutely give your trees a good water for sure. Yeah.

Anna Sakawsky:

Yeah. Because we even do that. I mean, we have a cedar in the backyard and the cedar’s big and old … I mean, there’s cedars in the forest. They’re not getting watered throughout the summer, but we do have now drought conditions in the summer months. And so I always give that area a little bit. A little bit of water as well, just to keep the ground a little bit moist. But well, thank you so much. I mean, you have answered so many questions today. And again, for our listeners, Susan has tons of information available online through her website, orchardpeople.com, through the many books that she’s written and courses she teaches, her new book. Is that going to be coming out soon or do you want to mention that again?

Susan Poizner:

Yeah. So the book is called Designing a Fruit Tree Garden. It will be available on Amazon. And if people … I’m going to have a freebie on Amazon where people can download the ebook for free. So on orchardpeople.com, if you join my mailing list, I’ll tell you about it. It’s going to happen, I think in May, the beginning of May, and you’ll be able to download the book on a Kindle format that you can look at any device, and then if you like it, you can buy the book. But yes, I’m super excited about this one. And this is a fun book because you’ll see lots of pictures from all the orchards that I have visited over the years in Norway, in the UK, our orchard as well, but you really get inspired by things people have done and it gives you great ideas for your own garden.

Anna Sakawsky:

Awesome. Well, I love a good gardening book of any type, so I’ll be sure to check it out. And we will include, of course, links to your website and anything we mentioned in this episode in the show notes below. So thank you so much again for being here. It’s been such a pleasure and I’m sure we’ll have you back to talk about fruit trees more again in the future because there’s obviously, like I said, I could pick your brain all day. There’s so much more to learn and to know. But for anybody who’s listening, I am hoping that this at least gives you a good starting point and enough knowledge that again, you can … I think it’s always good to learn enough to then take that first step, but then the next important thing is to actually take that first step and go get yourself a fruit tree and get planting and get growing and start some hands-on learning.

Awesome. Well, if you enjoy today’s conversation, be sure to subscribe so you don’t miss future episodes. And if you know someone else who’s been thinking about planting fruit trees, please share this episode with them as well. So thank you so much for listening. We’ll see you all back here next time on The Coop. Before we wrap up today, I just want to thank you, our listeners, for being a part of this community. If you’ve been listening for a while and haven’t yet joined us as a subscriber, this is your sign to start your subscription to Homestead Living Magazine. A Homestead Living subscription includes six beautifully printed issues each year, and they’re designed to be kept, dog eared, bookmarked, pulled off your shelf and referred back to you again and again. Every issue is filled with practical skills, seasonal guidance, and trusted voices who’ve put in the hours and learned the hard way so that you don’t have to.

Right now, a full year, all six issues is just $49, and it is one of the best ways to support the work that we do here while building a home library that you’ll return to again and again. As the editor, I may be a little bit biased, but if you value thoughtful, authentic, grounded guidance from people who don’t just talk the homesteading talk, but actually walk the homesteading walk, then this magazine was made for you. So you can start your subscription now by heading to homesteadliving.com/subscribe or click the link in the show notes.

Anna Sakawsky:

And there’s a constant tension between living the homestead life and working to fund it and to share it with the world. But the reality also is that if you’re really doing this and you’re really living this lifestyle, it’s messy and it’s hard and it can be stressful and all these things too. And I’m going to tell you a little bit about me, my background, my homesteading journey and where I’m at, what my situation looks like, all the things that happen on the slippery slope that is homesteading. And again, if you’re on this journey, you probably have a bit of an idea of what that’s like.

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My name is Anna Sakawsky and I am the editor-in-chief of Homestead Living Magazine. And today I want to talk to you a little bit about just who I am and who we are at Homestead Living and what the Coop is all about and also what homesteading actually means. So it’s a little bit of an introduction episode, kind of the intro that we never had. I know it’s a little bit weird to do an introduction episode on episode 18, but I do think it’s high time that we do because some of you probably don’t know much about me. And as the host, I want to share a little bit more about my own homesteading journey so that you know who you are listening to, but some of you might also not know much about homestead living, especially if you found us on YouTube or on Apple or Spotify.

You might not know what we do or how we help and give a voice to the homesteading community. So I want to talk a little bit about our story. And then finally, I want to quote unquote define the terms here. So to talk a little bit more about what I think homesteading is, what it isn’t, who it’s for, who it’s not for, because everybody has a little bit of a different definition about what homesteading means in the modern context. We’re not talking about the Homestead Act here, which funnily enough, some people who are not familiar with homesteading in the modern sense still think of when they think of homesteading. I actually had a terrible time trying to register my business up in Canada where I live trying to register a business with the name Homestead in the title because the official definition that I guess our government still has about what homesteading actually means is getting free land, staking your claim on free land.

That’s not necessarily what we’re talking about in the modern sense, but there’s some confusion around it. And it’s a question that I ask a lot of our guests that we have on the show is, how do you define homesteading? What does it mean to you? And everybody has a slightly different answer, but there are some common threads too. So I want to talk about those and kind of address this question of like, who is a homesteader? What does it mean to homestead in the modern day? Especially nowadays when more and more people are coming to this lifestyle and more and more people are sharing it online. There’s been a lot of arguing almost that I’ve seen online lately about what a homesteader truly is and how long you need to have been doing this to be considered a real homesteader and all that sort of thing.

So I want to address some of that as well. So let’s just kind of dive in. I’m going to tell you a little bit about me, my background, my homesteading journey and where I’m at, what my situation looks like. So my husband, Ryan, and I, we first met when we were living in the city. So both Ryan and I grew up in Vancouver, BC. And so we both really grew up as city kids. We lived in the suburbs, but we were full on city kids. I didn’t really have any exposure to homesteading or farming or anything like that. The closest to it probably was when I was a little girl. I mean, my grandpa had a pretty sizeable garden in his backyard. He did grow up in an era and in an area of the province where they did do a little bit of homesteading.

They probably didn’t call it that back in the day, but they did grow some of their own food. And he had always had a garden, so that was natural for him and his mother did. And I remember my great-grandma still being alive when I was a little girl. And I remember she would always have like some tomato plants that she’d started in a sunny window and she’d grow some things in the backyard. And so that’s probably similar to a lot of people’s stories where a few generations back, like our family members were doing this and then it kind of got lost somewhere in between. But I was lucky enough to spend enough time with my grandpa that I had, I got the opportunity to go out in the garden with him and just kind of play in the dirt and that sort of thing. So I had some exposure to it anyway, but otherwise I really didn’t grow up around this at all.

So when I was a little bit older … Well, I mean, I always loved nature. That was one thing. I always felt most at peace in nature. I loved to go camping and I loved to just be connected to the land and the seasons in whatever way I could. And then when I was a young adult, I was actually working as a travel agent and it was a pretty stressful job. And I was always on call and there was always problems with canceled flights and all the stress that goes along with that. And I was working downtown very much in the heart of the city and I just was dealing with a lot of anxiety all the time. And I remember going out to visit a friend who had moved out to one of the small islands off the coast of BC and it was just so beautiful and so peaceful.

And I’m standing out there on her balcony looking out into the forest and there’s deer. And it was just so, so peaceful. And meanwhile, I’m on the phone trying to deal with a canceled flight and all of the stress that goes along with it. And I just thought, what am I doing? This is not what I want. I don’t want this kind of fast paced city life. I want this, right? I want to be somewhere where I can feel more connected with the land. So that was like my first inkling that I wanted to make a shift, but it still didn’t happen right away. I traveled a lot in my 20s and that led me all over the world. I lived abroad in Vienna, Austria for a term when I was going to school and traveled across Europe. And then I got to live in Africa for a while, just traveled around South Africa and then ended up doing some volunteer work in Senegal.

And that was a really interesting … Traveling was really opened the door for me to do things that eventually led to homesteading, funnily enough, because traveling abroad and homesteading, being very home based can seem like very opposite things, right? But it was the first time I was really on my own. I had to learn to cook for myself, especially in Africa. That was a different experience altogether where it was like very much we just had a little burner and whatever you could get at the market that day was what you had to make. And it forced me to learn a lot and get creative. And then later on, I actually also lived over abroad in Australia. And that’s where my husband and I, we had met working and travel before that, but we stayed in touch and he ended up moving over to Australia with me and we lived there for a time.

And that also continued to grow this kind of love for food. I guess in both of us, we didn’t have a lot of money. We were young. We were backpacking. We didn’t have a lot. And so we were living for a while in Byron Bay on the East Coast of Australia and basically didn’t have two nickels to rub together. And so we had to make do with whatever we had. We started watching a lot of cooking shows. That was really a big thing in Australia at that time, like master chef type stuff. And my kitchen rules was another one because we got like a free TV on the side of the road, so that was some of our entertainment. And then we couldn’t afford to eat out, but of course we still had to eat. So we were like, how can we eat for as cheap as possible, but still enjoy it?

And so we were really inspired to go to the grocery store, see what we could get and see what we could actually make a meal out of. So as silly as that sounds, that was kind of the very beginnings of this foray into homesteading for me because I learned that I really liked to do this and I now had a partner who actually really liked to do this stuff too. And so when we came home and we moved into an apartment in the city and we actually had our own kitchen though. So it was really cool because it was like, “Hey, now we can expand on this love for cooking and food and all that. ” And so one thing led to another. And then that love of cooking and ingredients, making something out of nothing in a sense, out of a few ingredients led to me looking at how can I source my food more locally, finding local farmers in the area, that sort of thing.

And then around this same time, this would have been late around, I guess 2012 was when we got back from Australia and this was around the same time that the homesteading movement was starting to pick up a bit of steam. So this was around the time that documentaries like Food Inc were coming out. That was a big kind of first exposure to Joel Salatin, for example, who is one of our regular contributors for the magazine now. But I believe it was like either that documentary or one of those. There was lots at that time that were coming out that kind of introduced us to this term homesteader, right? They were kind of comparing and contrasting the big industrial egg system that produces most of our food and then contrasting that with small regenerative farmers that were doing things differently. And then also people who were doing it on a homescale and they were calling themselves homesteaders, right?

This is kind of growing for themselves. So rather than for production where you’re growing commodity crops or you’re growing to sell, homesteaders were taking that control of their food because they were growing it at home themselves. And that really sparked something in me. And then at the same time, a lot of the documentaries on TV too were based around that. They were picking up steam. So if you listen to our last episode, I had Eve Kilter from Alaska the last Frontier Fame. So Discovery Channel had a bunch of these shows, Back to the Landers up in Alaska and homesteaders and people that were just living alternative lifestyles. And so these puzzle pieces started coming together for us where we’re like, we like the cooking, we like sourcing local, I like knowing where my food’s coming from. I’m watching these documentaries about our industrial agriculture system and our industrial pharmaceutical industry and all these things.

And I’m going like, “I know I don’t want that. ” And I’m back in the city where I grew up now and I’m dealing with anxiety again because there’s something about being in this city environment that’s not fitting and sitting well with me. And so all these puzzle pieces start to come together where it’s like, “Okay, I do want this. I do want a hand in where my food comes from and how it’s produced and processed and all that. ” And I don’t want to be feeding into this big industrial system in the way that we are now as just being kind of consumers of it. And I don’t really feel like I’m at home in the city and I think I want something else and we’re starting out, we’re getting married soon and we’re trying to figure out like, what does life look like for us?

What do we want out of life? Where do we want to be? And so eventually, I can’t remember now if it was like a light bulb kind of went off overnight or if it was just this slow burn to where we kind of just went like, maybe this is the thing. Maybe we should pursue homesteading and move out of the city and get a little bit of land and have a garden and maybe have some chickens and raise some our own food and be more self-sufficient and disentangle from this system. And so that’s essentially what we did. And the journey was slow at first because we were still living in a condo in the city, but we started, we did what we could. Again, a lot of that at that point in time looked like sourcing food locally from other food producers in our area.

I started learning how to forage for certain things that were in season. I started doing like very, very basic preserving, like really just mostly freezing at that point, but just freezing things that were in season and then getting to enjoy them throughout the year rather than just going to the grocery store and getting blueberries from, I don’t know, South America or something in the middle of the winter, right? Really trying to get more local with our food, cooking a lot more from scratch, learning a lot more about that.

And then eventually we did start to try to grow some things, but we didn’t have a lot of luck where we were. We lived in an apartment building or our apartment had a north facing balcony. So it was shaded most of the day, which is not great when you’re trying to grow food, but I didn’t know anything about growing anything at that point. And so we had some herbs that like kind of did okay, but even they kind of dwindled over time because they weren’t getting enough sunlight. I think maybe we tried to grow a tomato planter too that didn’t do much of anything. We tried to start carrot seeds indoors, which that was a total failure. Typically, first of all, you don’t start carrot seeds indoors, you just direct sew them in the ground, which I had no idea what I was doing, but we also put them inside, did not have them under direct light.

The window was like half a mile away and they were leggy and reaching toward the window and we way overwatered them and they were saturated. And I feel so bad for those poor little baby carrot seedlings that all just died. But you have to start somewhere. And so we did. That’s where we started. And most importantly, that was when I was in that voracious learning stage. And if you have ever been in that stage of homesteading or if you’re in it now, you know how exciting it is, right? That’s when everything is new and you want to learn everything. So I was taking books out of the library. I remember like the library was my best friend at that point in time and I was going and taking out books on everything to do with home setting and how to set up a small backyard garden and do a small skill homestead and how to identify certain things that you’re foraging for and how to cook more things from scratch and bake things and all the things.

I was just like, I couldn’t get enough of it. It was like a fire hose had turned on and I was there for it to lap up every drop of it. I loved it, but I wanted to like take the next step too, right? And we were limited at the end of the day with what we could do in our apartment. And so we did have a plan to get out of the city. So fast forward a couple years, I had to go back to school and we got married and then we had made a plan to leave the city and move to Vancouver Island. So that is where we live now. So we live in a place called the Komox Valley, which in the local indigenous language here means the land of plenty. And that is actually because the soil is very fertile here because it was an ancient seabed basically.

So a long time ago, this was underwater. And so there’s a lot of mineral deposits and that sort of thing in the soil here, which makes it very rich and very fertile for growing. And so it is a very big agricultural community here, lots of local food producers, lots of people that are into like regenerative, organic farming and growing and all that stuff. So that was part of why we decided on this community specifically, we did a lot of research into where we wanted to move and what would suit our needs and our goals in life. And we settled on the Komox Valley, which I am so glad in so many ways that we did. And at first when we moved here, we rented, but we luckily had to deal with the owners who my husband had worked for one of the owners when we lived back in the city and they happened to have a property over here that had been in his wife’s family forever.

Her grandfather actually built the house and her father had grown up in the house and she had grown up in the house. And then when her father, I guess, had passed, the house was empty and they wanted to move back here when they retired or when they were ready and restore the house. It’s a beautiful old farmhouse. But in the meantime, it was sitting there not being lived in and they wanted to get some work done on it. So we kind of made a deal with them. Luckily I have a very handy husband and so he agreed to do some of the renovation work on it and we got to live there in the meantime. And that was great because we had animals that we were bringing and everything and it’s, I don’t know where you live, but where we are, it is very difficult to find rentals that will allow you to have animals as well.

So it was a good deal always around. And we were super lucky that they did not charge us rent while we were there, which was just like another leg up for us. But in exchange, there was a work exchange for it. But so this farmhouse was on about, I want to say it was about an acre, just under an acre, but it also shared a few acres with the neighboring property and the neighbors were fantastic there and they had free range hens, free range chickens who would wander over and we’d get our eggs from them. And so that was like another, like my first toe dip into living somewhere where like we got chickens running around and I can just get my eggs off the neighbor now. And there was a really big old apple tree there. And when it was apple harvest season, we just had hundreds and probably thousands of pounds of apples fall off this tree.

And I was so excited because I got to actually preserve them. That was my very first time canning was I canned a whole bunch of applesauce. And so that was how I got my toes dipped into that. And we asked if we could put a garden in and they let us put a few raised beds in. So we started to garden and then I learned how to start seeds. And then we were really cash strapped that first Christmas there. And so I decided to start making candles to give to everybody that Christmas. And so then I got into making things like candles and home and body products and that sort of thing. And just it started to snowball from there where one thing led to another, canning led to dehydrating, led to fermenting, led to all the things that happen on the slippery slope that is homesteading.

And again, if you’re on this journey, you probably have a bit of an idea of what that’s like now. For a lot of people, it’s sourdough, for example, right? Sourdough was known as like the gateway drug into homesteading and you start with that and then you move on to something else. And then the beauty of this lifestyle is that there are a never ending amount of things that you could learn or you could add or you could do. That’s also a bit of the curse with it is you have to be realistic about how much you can do and how much you can do in all at once or in a season. But so that’s how we got started anyway. And then back in 2018, we bought a house just around the corner actually from there. So we’re not too far from where we started off.

But now we own our place, but we are on a quarter acre. So it’s really not that big. A lot of people are really surprised that when they hear about our property, because I think maybe some people that do know me or follow along, would assume that I have some big homestead and we don’t. We just have a quarter acre that is basically, we’ve got one foot in the suburbs and one foot in more rural living. We are technically zoned as rural, but we’re three properties away from the property line from the city. We live on a cul-de-sac in the front, but we back onto a green belt. So we’ve kind of got a foot in both worlds. We’re down at the end of a dark no through road, but then at the same time, we’re right around the corner from Costco and the hospital.

So in many ways, it’s actually the best of both worlds. Eventually, we would like to maybe upgrade and move out and get farther out, but for now this is a really good stepping stone. And on our quarter acre, we actually produce a fair amount of our food. So we have a large garden. Our whole front garden is basically garden beds, or our whole front yard is gardens. So we have four big in- ground beds that are, I call our market rows, because that’s where we kind of grow for production, grow a lot of our stable crops. And then we put in four more raised beds last year, one of which is our medicinal herb bed that I’m building out. And then the other three are kind of a mix of, I’m doing flowers now as well as a lot of our vegetables we grow. And we have a cattle panel trellis where in the middle of that where we grow our peas and our beans and all that sort of thing.

So we’re trying to really work on how to maximize production on a small property. That’s our main goal. Just adding things all the time, grapevines and apple trees and cherry trees we added last year. And we have about … We have eight chickens. Eight chickens righ now? Yeah, eight chickens. We have one brooster, we call him Randy, Randy the rooster and seven hens at the moment. We have had rabbits here before, but we don’t for now, but we do have a pen where we could have them again, or we’ve thought about maybe doing some meat chickens, although we have not done that yet. We are currently building a greenhouse. We are currently, well, starting to convert back behind me, if you’re watching the video, is the door that leads to our laundry room/pantry. And we’re kind of working on converting that into a bit of a prep kitchen because we do a lot of preserving in the summer.

And so having that be where we do some of the canning so it doesn’t take up our whole kitchen, have my dehydrator and my freeze dryer back there and we’ve got building out an expanded pantry because we’re also just in a rancher. We’re on a quarter acre and we have about a 1200 square foot rancher, right? It’s not huge. So we’re really trying to make the most of what we got. We also had a garage that we converted into a rental. So that’s all part of our homesteading plan though too, right? Is how can we be more productive on this land, earn an income from this land, whether it’s working from home or having a little bit of rental income come in, how can we produce more through what we’re growing and doing and producing? So that’s kind of our story in a nutshell and where we’re at now with homesteading.

And quite honestly, I am so happy to be here. Yes, we have dreams of having more land and doing more eventually. I also have a nine-year-old daughter and a three-year-old son, and we are very busy. And I don’t know, quite honestly, if I could handle more than what we’re already doing.

We source our meat, for example, locally because we’re not producing most of our own meat. We do have our chickens for eggs, but for the most part, we’re sourcing locally. We have a freezer full of beef and half a hog and are very lucky that we live in a community that also is full of food producers and small farmers and that sort of thing that we can support and that we can lean on for the things that we are not producing. So that is kind of our story. In addition to that, and maybe this kind of leads into the next thing about who is homestead living and what is my part in that? This episode is brought to you by Azure Standard. Family owned since the 1970s, Azure Standard is on a mission to make real food more accessible by delivering it straight to your doorstep or to a convenient local drop point near you.

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There were a number of bigger homestead bloggers that had come before me, but this was still in the heyday of blogging and all that. And I have always loved to write. The first time I went to university was for journalism. I’ve always loved to … I have a magazine that I made for a school project when I was about seven or eight. So it was always something I’d like to do, write and edit and do that stuff. And then I went back to school to be a teacher, realized that wasn’t for me. I loved to teach, didn’t love to manage a class of kids. And then when I had my own kids, I had to be able to manage my energy to be with them. And anyway, so I decided I wanted to stay home with them, but I also wanted to still pursue something that was meaningful for me.

And so I started to see these other homestead bloggers doing this as a living. I didn’t realize this was something you could actually do for a living, but they were, and they were sharing about homesteading and they were sharing what they were doing online and they were creating a bit of an income from it as well. And I was looking for a way to combine all of my passions and also be home with my kids. And so I launched my blog, which is called The House and Homestead back in 2017 and grew a little bit from there. It was never like a huge blogger, but I made it okay. It was supplemented our income and it was something, it was something that kept me extremely excited about what we were doing and excited to share it with everybody. And then in 2019, I decided to launch my own little magazine called Modern Homesteading Magazine.

And I cringe now when I look back at the first covers of that, it was so bad, but I just put it together. It was just free at first. I just wanted to be able to have it to be something to give away to my readers in more of a printable compact form rather than on a blog. And it kind of took off. The people that were reading it really enjoyed it. So I just kept doing it every month. And then I did that actually for almost four years and people really wanted print. That was what I was realizing was that the homesteading community, it’s so funny because print is dying in so many ways. A lot of magazines are shutting down and just going digital now because people aren’t buying magazines like they used to, but the homesteading community, they like tangible things that they can hold in their hands and they can keep on their shelves and they can dog ear and actually hold onto in case they can’t access it online for some reason.

I think that’s kind of part of this wanting to go back to the old fashioned, to this, maybe an analog, lifestyle, whatever the case may be. But with Homesteaders, we want to kind of go back to those things that are real and tangible and the things we can hold. And so I was getting a lot of requests to go to take the magazine to print, but being that I am actually based in Canada and most of my readers were in the US and printing and shipping costs, and this was already what, 2022 or 23, I guess. So we were already into the age of supply chain issues and inflation and that sort of thing after COVID. And no matter how many times I crunched the numbers, I couldn’t make it make sense. It was just not going to be a sustainable business model. I couldn’t do it all myself and bring it to print and ship it and everything.

And so I decided to do a print issue for my very last issue, just as a thank you to all my readers and then shut it down. And right around that exact same time, I think I announced that online and Melissa K. Norris, who is one of our co-founders here at Homestead Living, reached out and said, “We are looking to take our magazine, Homestead Living print, and we need an editor and I’ve been watching what you’ve been doing and would you be interested?” And for a little bit of context, Melissa, and I do go back a little bit because she was one of the very first homesteaders that I ever started following that I learned most of what I know probably from. I learned how to garden from her and I learned how to bake sourdough bread from her. And I learned a lot of the preserving aspect of homesteading.

I learned from her as well, canning and everything. And then I got to do some work with her on her blog back in the day. So did some guest posting there and helped her transcribe her podcast for a while. So we had a little bit of a relationship, but when she asked me to come on as the editor for Homestead Living, it really was kind of serendipitous. It was just like divine timing that they were looking for somebody to take that role because they were going to print and I was leaving and it took me months of deliberation and quite honestly praying over it and really listening to my intuition. And it was saying, “It’s time. It’s time to close this door.” And I didn’t know what was next. I just followed that intuition and I closed that door and literally the door to Homestead Living opened right at that time.

And so I came on as the editor of Homestead Living Magazine in January of 2024, and that is when we officially went to print. We had done one trial print run before then and we started going to print in January and that’s been my role ever since. So I’m still running the house in Homestead on the side. If you want to ever go check that out, I’ve got lots of resources on there for anybody getting interested in homesteading or lots of gardening and preserving and cooking and baking and all that sort of stuff you can find at the houseinhomestead.com. But my main role now is as the editor-in-chief for Homestead Living. So that Brings me to who are we and what do we do? So for those of you who don’t know, first of all, The Coop, the podcast that you’re listening to is brought to you by Homestead Living.

So we are a full media company who is committed to equipping people worldwide with practical education to fuel their homesteading journeys. That is our official mission and we do that in a number of ways. So number one is through the magazine, that’s how we started. So we actually started co-founder Melissa K. Norris and her co-founder, Daryl Vesterfeld, founded Homestead Living back in 2022 because they saw that there was kind of a bit of a gap in the market. And there were some certain magazines that had been around for a long time that cater to the homesteading or back to the land crowd. But there was nothing really speaking to a lot of the more modern homesteading crowd, people that have come to it in the last 10 years or so. And so they wanted to give a voice to these modern homesteaders. And it started off as just a really basic digital magazine and it grew.

And of course, the homesteading crowd was demanding print, right? Probably louder than they were with mine. I saw a lot of the comments online and people were like, “This is great. Let me know when it comes to print and then I’ll buy it. ” So it took a couple of years of them growing it to the point where they could take it to print, but then that’s ultimately why we went to print is to serve the homesteading community who largely wants, like I say, something they can actually hold in their hands and keep on their shelves. So it started with the magazine. We’ve continued to grow from there with the magazine. And we have also grown into a publishing company. So we actually have six published titles to date, so books, including some titles that hopefully you know or maybe even have on your shelf already.

Some of them are behind me. It’s a little bit small, so you probably can’t see them. But our first one was Everything Worth Preserving, which was by Melissa K. Norris. So a full comprehensive preserving book kind of covering all of the different preserving methods from canning to dehydrating to fermenting and all the different crops and how to preserve them. So there was everything worth preserving. Daily sourdough, which has I think been our top seller by Lisa Bass of Farmhouse on Boone. So Lisa is really well known for her sourdough baking. And this, again, because I think sourdough is so accessible to so many people, it has been wildly successful. This book, if you don’t have a copy of daily sourdough, definitely check it out. You can get all of these books to on our website, so at homesteadliving.com or check them out there. So we had everything worth preserving, Daily Sourdough, Freeze Drying the Harvest by Carolyn Thomas of Homesteading Family.

And there are some other freeze-drying books out there, but this is really, I’d say, like the definitive comprehensive guide to freeze-drying. The produce that is either coming out of your garden or that you’re purchasing from farmer’s markets in the summertime. If you are able to invest in a freeze-dryer, then absolutely it makes sense to have this as a companion book, but freeze-drying the harvest. Then of course there was Cheese From Scratch by Robin Jackson. So Robin is a fellow British Colombian up here. I actually first met her back when I interviewed her for Modern Homestead Magazine. She reached out to me and was like, “Hey, did you want to chat about cheese making?” And at the time I was like, “Yeah, I do. I don’t know anybody else in this space doing cheese making.”That was even for homesteaders, that was next level if you were making your own cheese and milking your own cow.

So we’ve got cheese from scratch by Robin Jackson and then the Beekeeper’s Apothecary, a foundational guide for becoming your own herbalist, a beautiful coffee table worthy book on herbalism essentially. It is a little bit deceiving because you don’t actually have to be a beekeeper to partake in the knowledge that Kaylee shares in her book and to make some of the recipes and be able to benefit from the herbs and the bee products like honey and that sort of thing that she uses in all of her recipes. And then our most recent release is Gardening with Chickens by Elisa Steele of Fresh Eggs Daily. So this is actually a release, a 10th anniversary re-release of Gardening with Chickens. And of course, she’s just got a decade more of experience under her belt to share about how to garden alongside your chickens in a way that’s symbiotic so that your garden is benefiting from your chickens, your chickens are benefiting from your garden.

And also your garden is not being destroyed by your chickens because that is a messy reality sometimes of homesteading. And I actually, we did an episode with Lisa Steele not too far back, probably three episodes back, I think, where we talk all about gardening with chickens. So if you want to learn more about that, go check that out. But if you’re interested in any of those titles or any of those topics, you can check them all out at homesteadliving.com. So we are a magazine, we are a publishing house, and then we also launched The Coop, which is this podcast, as a live show back in January 2025, and then we decided to turn it into a podcast in the fall of 2025, and that pretty much brings us to today. So our mission as a team, as a company, as an entity is to inspire a healthy and sustainable life.

And of course, that’s important that we all live that ourselves, right? So we don’t just preach it. We really try to walk the walk, right? We’re doing it right alongside you. And I’m not going to lie, pouring into work and into growing a business and a magazine and a podcast, that can be all consuming work. And there’s a constant tension between living the homestead life and working to fund it and to share it with the world. And if you miss the last episode, I mentioned I talked to Eve Kilchure all about finding balance as a homesteader in the modern world, because let’s face it, right? We don’t have all day to churn butter by hand these days. And man, sometimes I wish that we did, but I’m also happy to live in an age where we don’t have to spend all day churning butter. But that also does mean that we live in a time where we are trying to balance lots of different demands on our time and full schedules and all of … It’s not like most homesteaders nowadays go, “Okay, I’m going to be a homesteader, so I’m going to forego all of the modern conveniences and technology of the modern world, and I’m just going to go back to the land and live that way.” No.

What it means in the modern context is that we’re doing some of that stuff, but we’re doing alongside all of the demands of modern life, right? We’re trying to somehow fit it into an already very full schedule. And so that kind of brings me to my last point here, which is what does homesteading actually mean in its modern context, right? Because I mean, if we’re not spending all day churning butter in our kitchen, what are we even doing? Or can we even call ourselves homesetters? So the short and direct answer to that is yes. Yes, we can call ourselves homesetters and not be doing that. Homesteading is not all or nothing. It can look like running a herd of cattle on 10 acres or 50 acres or 500 acres, or it can look like turning your backyard into a garden or keeping a few chickens or baking sourdough bread and preserving food from the farmer’s market in your urban apartment, right?

That is homesteading too. Homesteading in the modern context isn’t about staking your claim on a free piece of land. All the power to you, if it can mean that as well, but it’s more so about the way I like to define it. And again, I ask most of our guests this and everybody’s got a bit of a different answer, but almost everybody touches on the fact that it’s like a mindset more than anything. And I believe that as well. And I think for me, the way I would describe it is it’s the mindset of being more of a producer rather than simply a consumer and being resourceful, doing what you can where you are with what you’ve got. So that can scale up and it can scale down, right? You don’t have to be doing it on a large scale or have a lot of land to just become a little bit more of a producer in your own life.

Maybe that just means baking some bread in your kitchen. You can do that anywhere. If you got a kitchen and you live in the 21st floor of a downtown apartment, you can bake a loave of bread. You can cook a meal from scratch. You can preserve something, right? You can something probably. And of course, then you can scale up from there. So when I was thinking about this and what is modern homesteading and how did it kind of evolve to where it is today? I wanted to just touch on what the history of modern homesteading is. And homesteading, the actual history of homesteading, I mean, really, it goes back to ancient times, right? Because growing our own food and producing what we need, that is just how people lived for centuries and millennia. Of course, they didn’t call it homesteading then, but that was just life, right?

And there’s a constant argument too between people about like, “Oh, well, this term homesteading and just why don’t you just do it? That’s just called life or that’s how I grew up or whatever.” But it’s helpful to be able to define it because it helps differentiate between people who are growing, for example, for themselves and their families versus growing for market or growing for the public. I think there’s a difference between farming, obviously in the conventional sense and maybe hobby farming and then homesteading. It’s just helpful to kind of be able to define, “Well, what do we mean when we’re talking about that? ” But we’ve been doing this, our ancestors did this forever. And then it kind of fell out of fashion in the age of modern convenience. It was actually really big. It had a couple waves where it came back and was really big during the first and second World War and during the Depression when people had to, again, turn to producing things for themselves to deal with not having the money to purchase things and to deal with supply chain issues and having to send all the food to the boys flight in the war.

So you’re encouraged to grow your own at home to supplement that. But then after World War II, I think is really where it fell off because we all of a sudden had all these modern conveniences. We also had all these chemicals left over from the war that people were trying to figure out how do we put these to use? And they were converting them into being used for pesticides and things like that. So that was where modern agriculture really started to take off and we, the people stopped producing as much of our food, right? Stopped having that connection to it. And it got lost over the next couple generations. There was the wave of kind of back to the landers in the 1960s and 70s, and that’s, I think, where maybe you would say the OG modern homesteaders came from, like the people that maybe called themselves homesteaders back in the day that were choosing it rather than having to live that way because that was just the way you had to live.That was probably the real first wave of people who were choosing to go back to the land, choosing to live a homesteading lifestyle.

And of course, that’s where some of the publications that we’ve known for a long time like Mother Earth News popped up around then. And then again, it kind of maybe fell out of fashion a little bit over the next couple decades. And then I’d say homesteading in its real modern context probably started to take off again around 2008. And that’s actually what I’ve noticed, but also what I’ve heard from people that I’ve interviewed and spoken to was that they really saw that there was an uptick back in 2008. And of course there was the recession, makes sense when times are bad or hard times, people start flocking to something that feels safe, right? It’s the same reason that people start buying gold when the economy feels shaky because they want to hang onto something that feels … I was going to say something that feels stable as I shake my screen, but they want something that feels like that it’s solid ground that’s not going to be ripped out from under them.

And homesteading offers that to people, right? It’s something that you can control in a world where it feels like a lot is out of your control, right? And so a lot of people started coming to the homesteading movement then. That’s also the same time that social media and blogs were taking off. And so that’s, I think, how this whole marriage of the homesteading bloggers kind of happen is they were just two movements that were taking off at the same time. And then it held pretty steady over the 2010s. And like I say, I came into this in 2017 and to the actual … Well, I mean, that’s really when we started homesteading as well. I guess 2015 was when we moved out to the island, but 2017 was when I started blogging about it and then COVID happened, right? And so 2020, 2021, 2022, a lot more people, right?

The latest kind of wave of homesteaders came in. Of course, we saw sourdough bread take off and we saw home gardens take off. And that’s when a lot of people came to homesteading. And then now we’ve got this other, like the latest movement, I guess, or people who are coming into it. And I know I’ve seen a lot of debate about this online, about just the fact that the online world is just saturated with homesteading content creators now. And a lot of them are really trying to put forth a persona or an image and really romanticize the lifestyle. We’ve got this vision of the beautiful woman in the long flowing prairie dress out in the garden and everything just seems very romantic. And honestly, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. I love the beautiful romantic side of homesteading because that is what draws us in.

If it’s not beautiful and romantic, at least some of the time, why are we even doing this? But the reality also is that if you’re really doing this and you’re really living this lifestyle, it’s messy and it’s hard and it can be stressful and all these things too. And again, I keep talking about the last episode we did with Eve Kilture, but it’s really worth a listen because we really dive into all of these challenges that we face as homesteaders and trying to balance it in the modern world and the hardships that come with it and all that sort of stuff. So all of that to say that our goal at Homestead Living is really to show the reality of this lifestyle.

I want to show what it’s really all about. I want to show homesetting and all of its glory, right? The good, the bad and the ugly, but we want to do it. We want to package it and present it in a way that still feels beautiful and inspiring and draws you. And we don’t want to turn you off of a lifestyle. We want to bring you in. And there’s a reason why people that live this lifestyle tend to keep living a sweat lifestyle. Yes, there are people who give it up. I believe from what I’ve seen, a lot of people that give it up or walk away from it, it’s because they took on too much, either too fast or just too much. It was more than they could handle. But again, I think if we look at homesetting as a spectrum, right, from the apartment city dweller growing some sprouts on their counter, herbs on the balcony and cooking some meals from scratch all the way up to the cattle farmer on a hundred acres or whatever, home setting is a spectrum and it looks different for everybody.

And for some people, like being out there in their prairie dress in the garden, flowing around, that is authentic for them and all the power to you if it is. I just don’t want anybody to ever feel like it’s unattainable or that if you don’t look like that or you’re not doing all those things or you’re not … I hear a lot of people online now arguing about like, “Well, I was doing this before before it was cool.” And then somebody else will come in and be like, “Well, you’ve only been doing it for 20 years. I’ve been doing it for 60 years and I was the first one doing it before it was cool and I’m the pioneer.” It really doesn’t matter. I mean, for me, I’m just happy to see more people coming to this movement and I just want that you, you who’s listening right now, no matter where you are or what your experience level, I want you to know that you are a homesteader and you are welcome here.

And this is for everyone, right? Again, I think it comes down to a mindset, right? This mindset that drives us to want to become a little or a lot more self-sufficient, produce more of what we consume and ultimately have a little more control over and connection to our food and the land and to the things that sustain us. And there is a big spectrum and a big scale of how we can do this and how this shows up and looks in each of our lives, right? It’s going to be unique to everyone.

So that’s a wrap for today, friends. Thanks for joining me for this, I don’t know, stream of consciousness. I hope it wasn’t too rambly. Yeah. I mean, let me know. Let me know what you thought. If you like these solo episodes, let me know. Or if you’d rather me just shut up and bring more incredible guests on who probably know a lot more than I do about homesteading, then we’re going to do that anyway. We’re going to do that anyway. But if you do like these solo episodes, maybe I’ll start to throw a few more in. So if you did enjoy this episode, be sure to like, subscribe and leave us a review because honestly, that is how we are ultimately going to reach more people and bring even more homesteaders into our growing community. So most importantly, thank you for being a part of our community here.

And until next time, keep building What Matters wherever you are using whatever you’ve got and I will see you all next time back here on The Coop. Before we wrap up today, I just want to thank you, our listeners for being a part of this community. If you’ve been listening for a while and haven’t yet joined us as a subscriber, this is your sign to start your subscription to Homestead Living Magazine. A Homestead Living subscription includes six beautifully printed issues each year, and they’re designed to be kept, dog eared, bookmarked, pulled off your shelf and referred back to you again and again. Every issue is filled with practical skills, seasonal guidance, and trusted voices who’ve put in the hours and learned the hard way so that you don’t have to. Right now, a full year, all six issues is just $49, and it is one of the best ways to support the work that we do here while building a home library that you’ll return to again and again.

As the editor, I may be a little bit biased, but if you value thoughtful, authentic, grounded guidance from people who don’t just talk the homesteading talk, but actually walk the homesteading walk, then this magazine was made for you. So you can start your subscription now by heading to homesteadliving.com/subscribe or click the link in the show notes.

Eve Kilcher:

I feel like homesteading really needs to be more about community and all working together. It is the being truly being okay when a crop rots in the field because I don’t have time to deal with it and that’s okay.

Anna Sakawsky:

What’s wrong with me? Why can’t I do it? That person’s doing it. But usually again, we’re only being shown one side of it.

Eve Kilcher:

But we had my favorite milk goat dye. We don’t have a vet that can just be there and help us or do a C-section. We didn’t have a lot of options. I know we weren’t at fault, but it just was one of those things where I was like, sorry.

Anna Sakawsky:

Yeah. Oh no, not all. I mean, it is though. It is emotional and this is the real raw part. This episode is brought to you by Azure Standard. Family owned since the 1970s, Azure Standard is on a mission to make real food more accessible by delivering it straight to your doorstep or to a convenient local drop point near you. Everything they offer is completely organic, non- GMO, and free from junk additives you don’t want in your home or in your body. With more than 13,000 carefully vetted products, Azure Standard makes it easy to stock up on what really matters from bulk grains, nuts, and healthy oils to fruits and vegetables, frozen meats, pantry staples, and even clean household goods. And the best part is you skip the grocery store markup. You can order exactly what your family actually needs, save big on high quality food, and pick it up alongside neighbors who care about the same things you do.

Health, sustainability, and supporting ethical producers. You head to azurestandard.com right now to get started. Again, that’s azurestandard.com. Well, hello everyone and a welcome to episode 17 of The Coop. My name is Anna Sokowski and I am the editor-in-chief of Homestead Living Magazine. And today I’m joined by a very special guest for some real talk about what it actually means to homestead in the 21st century and balance homesteading with all of the demands of modern life because so much of what we see nowadays online paints this perfect kind of bucolic picture of homesteading. Too often, we have this image of a woman in a long flowing prairie dress out in her garden with a gaggle of children at her feet, eating carrots out of the ground and tomatoes fresh off the vine. And maybe there’s a loaf of freshly baked bread cooling on the counter of a spotless white kitchen with fresh cut flowers and a vase and baby goats, somehow very clean baby goats, looking very photogenic in an oversized farmhouse sink.

And maybe dad’s a skilled handyman fixing and building things around the homestead while the kids trail along, apprenticing at his side. And in the background, cows are moving and chickens are clocking and everyone lives happily ever after in harmony with the land and the rhythm of the seasons. And honestly, who wouldn’t want a life like this? If only it could be so romantic all the time. But the reality is that homesteading can be and often is messy and frustrating and overwhelming and hard and stressful. It doesn’t exist in a vacuum. It happens alongside all of the other demands and curve balls of modern life, and it can easily become just one more very big thing on an already overflowing to- do list. Kids have school and extracurriculars. Parents may be juggling one or more jobs. Outside the home, emails still need answering, businesses and careers need attention, bills need to be paid.

And all of that exists alongside the planning, planting, building, harvesting, preserving, and everyday attending that a homestead requires. So on this episode of The Coop, I am honored to welcome Eve Kilcher for a conversation about overwhelm and finding that ever-elusive balance as a homesteader and about the heart and often emotional work of deciding what to keep, what to let go of and what enough really looks like. So if Eve’s name sounds familiar, it may be because she was one of the stars of the Discovery Channel show, Alaska, The Last Frontier. This is actually one of the shows that got my husband and I into homesetting in the first place back when we were still living in a city condo. And even though it was reality TV, which kind of comes with its own stigma, like how much is actually reality. But the kilters always felt very genuine to me.

And I know from reading lots of comments online that that is the way they were perceived by much of their audience. They were never overly polished, never pretended that Homestead Life was easy or idyllic all the time. So we also featured Eve and her family, including the story of the Kilcher Family Homestead back in the January 2025 issue of Homestead Living. And we featured that story in our fourth annual collectors edition. So if you missed it, you can go to homesteadliving.com to get your copy. But today I’m excited to have Eve here to talk about the very real issues of managing stress, overwhelm and burnout as a modern homesetter, as well as how to scale back, set realistic expectations and still enjoy the journey even during the busy season. So Eve, welcome to the show.

Eve Kilcher:

Hey, thanks for having me.

Anna Sakawsky:

So I will say, just before we get into all of this, because I could easily kind of just ask you, what’s the answer here? Give us some strategies, give us some tips. And I don’t want to overwhelm you thinking like you have to have all the answers right now because you’re only human too. And I know that these are some things that you’re still trying to figure out for yourself. So I really just want this to be just a real conversation about like, what are some of the actual challenges? Because especially nowadays with so many people sharing their lives online and sharing the homesteading thing, people only want to share the good parts. And sometimes like with reality TV, we’re only curating certain aspects of it and it can set a really unrealistic expectation for other people who want to genuinely live this lifestyle. So I just really want to just be really real about what that looks like for you and all the messy parts of trying to figure it out.

Eve Kilcher:

Well, I think the number one is the answer always changes. If we can count on one thing in this life, it’s things will always change. And I think the more we can find our peace with that and find resilience in change and know that this works right now, but might not work later, I can change my mind, like I can get rid of the goats now, but that doesn’t mean I never get goats again. I think that overarching psychology is the answer. The answer will always change. I’m like …

Anna Sakawsky:

Totally. And you’re right. I think as soon as we embrace that a little bit, like I’ve even been saying that to my husband lately, we’re in a season similar to probably where you are just because of the stage of our lives and we’re building and we’ve got a young family and all these things. And it’s hard sometimes. I’m like, “But this is a season two. This will also not last forever.” And we have to remember that I think so many of us can kind of get caught up in the here and now and think it’s always going to be this way or it always has to be this way and then it can be really hard when.

Eve Kilcher:

Right.

Anna Sakawsky:

Well, before we dive into all this, I do want to just start by having you just paint a picture of your homestead and life because maybe people out there who don’t know you, maybe didn’t watch the show, aren’t familiar with your story. So just kind of give us an idea, where exactly are you located? Who makes up your family there? So your immediate family, but also I know that there’s kind of some extended family in your area and what does your overall setup look like? So how much land do you guys have? What kind of animals do you raise? What does your gardening setup look like and so on?

Eve Kilcher:

Yeah. So we live about 11 miles outside of the city of Homer, or not city at all, the small town of Homer, Alaska. So we have convenience limited because it is a very small town of the whole surrounding area, I believe, including where we live is about 30,000 people, but that’s a very large area. That is not the actual town of Homer. So we have some level of convenience. So our homestead, we live on a piece of 40 acre parcel that is owned by Ivan’s father and who bought it long ago for a great price. And it borders the Kilcher Homestead proper. So that is the homestead that Ivan’s grandfather came to during the whole season when you could come and you could stake your claim on some property and truly homestead, according to the Homestead Act, you better the property than you apply to then own the property.

And that is the piece of property that we adjoin. That is a 600 acre piece and that is in … It’s all quite complicated and I won’t get into it too much, but there are various nonprofits and boards that manage that. And Yule was very smart and put it in the land trust here in Homer so the taxes are not exorbitant on it, but then with that comes limitations of what you can and can’t do with the property and all of that. So we basically border that. That is rolling Haymeadows down to a beach and is with incredible forests and the old Yules old homesteading site on it and various other little buildings. So we kind of have our own little site over here, little homestead of our own, but it, like I said, borders a very much larger homestead where we get our hay from our animals and do the hang and help out as we’re able with all the things that are needed over on the other homestead.

But we also have our own autonomy here.

Anna Sakawsky:

Nice. And I mean, it’s absolutely beautiful. For anybody who hasn’t seen the show, either go back and check out some past episodes or you can check Ivan and Eve out online on their YouTube channel. I’m giving you kind of early plugs. We’ll talk about this at the end too. You guys have a YouTube channel and a website. And of course, there’s some beautiful photos that we got for the magazine as well, but it’s absolutely gorgeous, idyllic looking life for sure, but obviously still works. So on your property, you guys have 40 acres and what kind of animals are you currently raising? How many of them? And yeah, let’s talk about like, you do a lot of the gardening, I know specifically Eve, so how big is your garden? What all are you managing there?

Eve Kilcher:

Yeah. So what I am managing and I end up managing a lot of the homestead lifestyle because as we all know, homesteading is not a big money making endeavor. And when we were no longer being paid to homestead, a. K.a. Discovery paying us to do what we do, we also have to come in and make other money. Somebody has to make more money. And so Ivan has a heavy equipment, construction business, runs heavy equipment. And so a lot of the homesteading falls on me. The gardening, the taking care of the animals, the general, just all that that entails. Of course, he steps in and helps. There are many things that I can’t do on my own, all of that. So what we have here is we have anywhere from two to four horses here. We auto has horses, we have a couple horses, and then we have two goats right now, have had more at different points in time.

We have probably about 20 chickens, that number varies. Three Holland Lop pet lunies. We have two dogs, two cats, and what else do we have? I think that’s it. Two

Anna Sakawsky:

Kids. Two kids is an important

Eve Kilcher:

Part

Anna Sakawsky:

Of managing that homestead, I’m sure.

Eve Kilcher:

Two kids. The most important part to manage the topic priority list. Yeah, two kids. My mom lives here in our basement. We have a daylight basement and has lived here for quite a while now. And she helps out as well with … She’s helped out with kids when they were younger and helps out a lot with the farm now. So we have ebbed and flowed a lot with having ducks or all kinds of animals. We have moved a lot of animals through here and yeah, I’ve gotten rid of things. I’m always dreaming of something else, but that’s kind of currently what we have going on.

Anna Sakawsky:

And then your garden. Let’s talk about your garden in the summer because you do the lion’s share of the gardening, from what I understand.

Eve Kilcher:

Yeah. I do all the gardening. Ivan just helps with any infrastructure that I need or any real heavy lifting. You’ll help with harvesting all the potatoes when there’s a huge project. We all work together on that and do it together. But most of the time I’m doing all of the gardening and general maintenance associated with that. I’d say I probably garden about an acre or an acre and a half worth of land. It’s all very spread out in different places. We have a big orchard, so I’m kind of counting that in there. And then I have a high tunnel that’s 30 by 72 feet. And then I have a big outside garden area that has a lot of my storage crops, cold weather crops. And then I have a big potato patch that’s quite expansive, probably about 30 by 70 feet as well, kind of depending.

And then there are other little plots of things here and there that I plant as well. So that’s the extent of the gardens.

Anna Sakawsky:

And then are you growing all of that for your family or are you … I know for a while anyway, I think you were doing a CSA or the farmer’s market. Are you selling any of that or is it all mainly for you guys?

Eve Kilcher:

It is for me now. I share a lot of it. I’ve gardened with friends of mine that wanted to learn more about gardening from me, like other families. And I’ll donate a lot of excess to our Haven house here, which is like, it’s basically a place for women to go if they’re in a bad situation. Also, I’ll donate to our food pantry when I have extra. So I used to, this all began really and how we ended up being on the show was I took a permaculture course right out of college in Hawaii, got very inspired about growing food, being more self-sufficient and doing it in a more sustainable ecological way. And then I came home and my stepmother has a 40 acre parcel that also borders a different edge of the homestead. And I started a CSA, just a little one for the neighborhood on there.

And so I just had like, I want to say eight families, and that’s where it began. I slowly grew up bigger and bigger as I learned more, as I felt more confident and just basically grew my gardens from there, eventually selling at the farmer’s market in town, always maintaining my CSA to kind of help with the overhead and growing the CSA. And then that was inevitably actually how we, one of the avenues that Discovery found us and then the Kilcher family as a whole.

Anna Sakawsky:

Right. Okay. Okay. And so, but now you’re kind of doing it mostly for your family, which I guess in some ways it takes a little pressure off of having to produce to sell, but at the same time, that probably means that you do a lot of preserving, that you end up with a lot of produce at the end of the season that you feel like you need to do something with less that all go to waste, right?

Eve Kilcher:

Yeah, totally. Totally. And

Anna Sakawsky:

Well, and speaking of the seasons, and I know we talked about this before when we featured you in the magazine, but Alaska’s seasons are so pronounced, right? You guys have these long, dark, very snowy winters and then these short, hot summers, this kind of really short … I think on one of your YouTube videos, which I’ll talk more about in a minute because it’s kind of what led to this interview in the first place, but Ivan had called it, said something about it feeling like it’s manic depressive, right? Yeah, the kind of opposites of summer and winter there, and that in the summer you’re just kind of frantically trying to get everything done. So I imagine that that already sets a lot of the rhythm and pace for the year for all Alaskans and especially as homesteaders, right? Yeah.

Eve Kilcher:

Yeah. Yeah. It is really intense and everyone feels it, not just people that are gardening. It’s also the season to make money. Homer is very much a tourist town, so all … I mean, everyone is under the same pressure, kind of no matter your avenue of making money. Fishermen, same thing. It’s just like we have lots of fishermen here and they have their fishing season and everything hinges on these literally three months. And you need to make the majority of your income within those three months or grow all your vegetables and get it all put up in those three months. So there is a lot of pressure. It’s also like the most beautiful epic time of year when you want to be out recreating, doing all the things, hiking, adventuring, going out on the boat, fishing. And so it’s like all the things need to happen in this extremely tight timeframe.

Anna Sakawsky:

Yeah. No kidding. Well,

Eve Kilcher:

Yeah, the long winter has its whole other set of challenges.

Anna Sakawsky:

Right. Well, I was going to ask that at first when I was kind of writing up my questions, I wanted to ask you what is an average day in the life, but I know that that’s almost impossible to answer because that changes throughout the year. And obviously it changes with the seasons of life too, which we’ll talk about in a sec. But just throughout the year, can you give us an idea of how that contrasts? What does an average kind of winter day look like for you versus a day in the summer when you’re trying to get everything done and put up before the snowfalls?

Eve Kilcher:

Yeah. Yeah. So summer, first and foremost, just the nature of summer here is so manic because it never really gets dark in the peak. So you’re driven, like your body, your whole biology is driven by that. So you can go these long 12, 13, 14 hour days and not stop simply driven by that it doesn’t get dark. There’s nothing that indicates to your body, “Okay, it’s time to be done, go to bed.” So we do pull a lot of really long days in the summer and then winter is the exact opposite. You have like three or four hours to do what you need to do to get outside for your mental health, exercise, fresh air and then … So we do all the outside things and all those things in the summer, like fishing and recreating and gardening and yeah, all that happens in the summer and then all that comes to a screeching halt.

And then you have to like little whiplash and you’re like, okay, now it’s cold, the ground’s frozen, everything’s put away. Now we have to figure out how to slow down and yeah, what do we do in the winter? And I mean, a lot of what I do and what a day looks like, I could say in the winter for us is we’re doing a lot of more like working on the back end of our business, computer work, coming up with other ways to make income in the winter when it’s harder for even to do heavy equipment and all the things that we would normally do in the summer. And so a lot of that’s happening, a lot of like non-glorified computer work and like planning. And then I preserve a lot in the winter. So I do a lot of like just down and dirty, like get the thing processed and like in the freezer or however that looks and then later come back to it and actually like make jam from the frozen berries or can all those frozen tomatoes.

A lot of that does not happen in the summer and doesn’t need to. So like a lot of people imagine and have this visual of like, you’re just preserving and canning and doing all these things in the fall. And I’m like, oh, heck no. I am literally like still in survival mode trying to get everything in before it breezes and like preserved in a capacity that it will last until I have a hot minute to actually have this like luxury to spend the time to make the jam and like do the thing inside.

Anna Sakawsky:

Well, that’s a really good tip just there, right? To just do what you need to do to get it preserved, get it in a form where it’s not going to go bad and then do the more intricate like canning or whatever you’re going to do throughout the winter. We do that with our tomatoes too for similar reasons, just because I don’t have time with everything else, but also because as they come on, I kind of throw them in the freezer and then when I have a big batch, we can do tomato sauce. And that usually happens in like January. So that’s a great tip. But as you said, a couple interesting things you said there, I didn’t think about the light. Yes, I knew because you guys are farther north, it’s darker for longer and lighter, but I didn’t really think about that it’s like most of the day, like in the summer, you’re right, your circadian rhythm probably isn’t even kicking in to say it’s time to go to bed because it’s still light out at nine, 10 o’clock or whatever, right?

And then in the winter it’s the opposite. So that was really interesting. And then what was the other thing? Oh, I can’t remember now. We’ll get into it though too, because I know you mentioned like that it is go time also in the summer, whereas that’s the time to recreate and do all these things as well. And that’s, we’re similar here. Our seasons are not as pronounced again as yours are, but being from Vancouver Island, we’re similar kind of geography and it’s just so beautiful. And we have all these recreational things at our disposal in the summer. And I always feel like we can’t get away. We can’t

Eve Kilcher:

Take

Anna Sakawsky:

Advantage of a lot of them because we’re kind of tied to doing the work here. So yeah, I mean, the other thing too that I thought about is, oh, that was the other thing was that you mentioned that even in the winter, like the work doesn’t necessarily stop. It changes, right? But I think we have, again, this romanticized idea sometimes that homesetting today is just like homesetting in the little house on the prairie days. And even that obviously is way over romanticized. There was a lot of hardships back then and it wasn’t … But we kind of think about, oh, like you say, you do all the hard work and you’re canning and doing this all and it looks so beautiful in the summer and then you have everything stored away for winter and then you just get to sit by the fire and play the fiddle and just have family time and just rest and relax, but especially in the modern day, there’s a lot to continue to keep us busy throughout the winter and a lot of it does include like sitting in front of a computer and doing that kind of work and trying to balance those aspects of your life.

So I know, like I actually love like January and February now because it is a little bit slower here. It is where we don’t have at least the outdoor projects going on, that sort of thing, but we’re just as busy in other ways. And sometimes I feel like even heading into the spring, I’m like, oh, I didn’t even get a rest really. And here we go again back into the really busy season. So do you find that as well, that there’s kind of a constant tension between home setting and the demands of modern life or is it more just that it’s like just the summer when it’s like frantic go time that’s really the problem?

Eve Kilcher:

No, I mean, in all honesty, if we’re being real, I feel like homesteading and modern life are literally like divisive and opposite in so many ways, right? It is so hard to live this homesteading lifestyle with a modern world that is like literally like at war sometimes for me, creating the more challenges and difficulties in doing this homesteading lifestyle, drawing me away from it, whether it be kids going to school and all their activities, and I spend so much time driving around when I really need to be home, like getting that vegetable preserved or getting those weeds out of the garden, there to me feel I’m like, in some ways back then it was simpler. It was definitely simpler because there just wasn’t all these modern expectations, pace of life, like we are expected to do it all and then some and this like grind, we have culturally been trained to just grind and do more and keep up with the, what do you call it?

Keep up with this-

Anna Sakawsky:

Joneses.

Eve Kilcher:

I’m like, what’s that saying? Keep up with the Joneses like, “Oh, well so- and-so seems to be able to do this and all the other things and make sure their kid does like every activity under the sun.” And you’re like, “How the heck are they doing that? Where are the hours in the day?” So it’s like, yes, that old style of living is very romanticized. That was rough. We do have modern conveniences. We do have running water. We do have things that make it easier in the modern day to homestead. There is no doubt there is technology, it is helpful and Ivan is very into that and making systems more efficient, more easy, not going to lie, that makes it easier. But I do sometimes find them quite opposing and like dividing as to like, what is more important because they are so opposite. I have to choose one priority.

I literally can’t balance to opposing things in the same moment.

Anna Sakawsky:

Yeah, that’s so true too. And I agree, there are lots of technologies and conveniences that make even homesteading easier, but if you’re not careful, you can start making life so easy again that you’re moving away from homesetting then and you’re not actually doing it yourself or whatever. So you have to almost find what is your own personal line because I agree everything is about like how efficient can you be. But again, if that’s our number one focus on just being efficient, then we’re probably not homesteading because it’s not the most efficient way to do things anymore. So I think you really have to be intentional about picking and choosing what you want to put your hand to, what is important that you are involved in directly and what you can maybe outsource or have a machine do or whatever, right? That’s only going to get worse with all the AI and technology nowadays, I know that these are questions that everybody’s asking.

How much do humans even need to still be involved in things? But what are we losing then from not being the ones that are putting our hands to some of these things?

Eve Kilcher:

Yeah, exactly. And in the end it is what makes you happy? What do you enjoy? What fills your cup? And what are your priorities? And just always touching back in with that. This is not important to me anymore. I can figure out a different method to get milk. I don’t have to milk twice a day and have milk goats. I really can figure something out. I’m willing to let that go because all these other things are more important or they fill my cup more and get me excited versus drain me and just make everything else so challenging.

Anna Sakawsky:

Well, and that’s the other end of it too, is I think a lot of homesteaders can be kind of a bit of martyrs for the cause. We can get so like, no, I have to do everything. I know I’ve been in seasons like that with the homesteader where I’m like, if I’m not making all the bread and growing all the vegetables and doing everything, and then people sometimes can be judgmental too. And you’re not really a homesteader unless you’re turning your own butter. I think we just need to kind of go easier on ourselves. But I think we are the type of people that are driven. We obviously want to be doing those things. So I think we got to be careful not to fall into maybe a ditch on either side where we’re trying to do too much and we’re killing ourselves trying to do it.

Or we’re just trying to outsource to be more efficient to the point where why are we even doing this all?

Eve Kilcher:

Yeah. And I think just like letting go of things, knowing that you can pick them back up again, it’s like there are seasons of life where I’ve had the capacity, time, capacity in my brain to make all of the bread that we eat. And then there are times where I’m like, I just don’t have the capacity to juggle that one more little thing and we will buy our bread. And then I get to get back into it and get excited about it again, get a break from it, whatever that is. It’s that I think a lot of times we feel like, oh, if I stop doing this or get rid of this or take this off my plate, it’s like a forever thing. And I’m like, not necessarily. As your children change or their interests change or well, they leave the house. I’m like, I will have a lot more capacity to focus on other things.

It’s just in this season, that isn’t what’s making sense.

Anna Sakawsky:

Totally. Well, okay. So let’s talk about this season a bit because you and Ivan actually recently made a YouTube video on your channel called We Need to Talk. So that was a good little draw. That headline right there, I think was the original reason I watched it. And I actually saw that it has like some of the highest views on your channel. And it was just a real conversation about the realities of homesteading and how taxing this life can be and how you guys are navigating it in the season that you’re in with your kids at the age they are and all these different things. And obviously that resonated with a lot of people, resonated with me. I found that it was just very genuine and from the heart, wasn’t trying to be to hide anything. It was just a real glimpse into what life is like and what challenges you’re facing right now.

So can you share more about maybe what you’re grappling with in the current season of life that you’re in and what, if any, changes that you’re making on your homestead right now to allow for more balance, especially as we kind of begin a new busy season again, right?

Eve Kilcher:

Yeah. Yeah. I feel like the greatest juggle is the mental part of it, right? That for me, I did let go of a lot of things last year with my garden and things rotted mice ate all my freaking vegetables and I just didn’t have the time or certain ones to deal with it. I had chosen me and doing something for myself and not being around the homestead as much and supporting my kids in different new endeavors instead of that. But what I found is I was like, okay, I can say I’m letting go of these things, but then when I come back and I’m like very stressed and very anxious and feeling like a failure because my garden did not succeed in all the ways it normally does, I’m like, “Whoa, wait, I didn’t let it go. ” That’s not letting it go. Letting it go is truly like being at peace with what is.

And I think that is the biggest thing I’m working on right now. We can get rid of animals and I am planning on getting rid of my goats this year. I want more freedom and I want to have less animals for caretakers to take care of when we decide to leave. And I want to just have less living things. And so that’s something that I’m physically getting rid of. But really for me, personally, it is the mental juggle. It is the being, truly being okay when a crop rots in the field because I don’t have time to deal with it and that’s okay. And to not like beat myself up, feel like a bad person and like a bad homesteader and I’m not succeeding and I’m a failure and all those nasty little things that go on in our brains, but truly like, okay, take a deep breath.

Are we going to starve this winter because those dang mice ate our carrots? No, we’re not. We’re very lucky. We can go to the store. I will not starve this winter and it’s okay. It is okay. And like finding that peace in your mind and not letting that nasty little voice in our head tell us we’re bad because this one thing didn’t work. I think that is really where I’m at is finding that peace, the peace in myself and my mind so that I can truly let go. So I said I was letting go of things last summer, but I didn’t truly. So my goal this summer is to truly like in mind, body and soul, like be okay when I’m letting that go. Yeah.

Anna Sakawsky:

Are you growing less this year or like because we’re kind of at the beginning of the season right now, what is your plan for how you are going to manage it going in? Are you kind of starting off with like, “Okay, I’m going to hold off on a bunch of things.”

Eve Kilcher:

Rain it back a little bit. Yeah, I tried to do that last year, but I’m so bad at it. So when you have been a commercial gardener, it is so … I have reigned it back a lot. Believe it or not, I mean, I have so much garden space, but I’ve reined it back, but I am really bad at that. If I have a garden space that I’m like- You’ll fill it. I’m going to fill it. Well,

Anna Sakawsky:

And especially at the beginning of the season, I’m really bad too. And I mean, we’re only on a quarter acre. We’re not doing anything near what you guys are doing, but we pretty much converted our entire yard into gardens. So there’s a surprising amount of space to fill if I want to. And when you’re in seed starting mode, the seeds are just so tiny. It’s just so easy to like, “Oh, I could do 20 or I could do a hundred.” It’s really the same at that point, but then later that’s a big difference, right? Yeah. But yeah, this year we’re actually, we’re not doing our … Again, I’ll knock on wood. I want to say we’re not doing a garden, but I don’t want to promise. We will do a garden, but not in our traditional sense because we’re building a greenhouse right now. We usually do all of our seeds starting indoors, under lights, usually behind me.

Now I’m doing this podcast and I’m like, “I can’t have all these seedlings in here this year and the greenhouse won’t be ready for a couple of weeks probably.” And I came to terms the other day and I just said to myself, “You could just not do it this year.” And you know what? Immediately I had this piece come on like, “I could just not do it this year.” Oh my God, I’ve just saved myself hours and hours, but every once in a while this feeling comes up in my throat like I can’t not do it. What do you mean not do it? So I’m like, “Well, I know I have to have a few of these plants and I feel I’ll do a row of this. I know I’ll still have certain things, but I’m like, we’re just sticking to the stable crops and just what we know we’re either going to eat fresh in the summer or stuff that I don’t have to physically preserve.

Our carrots, we still have carrots in the ground from last year that we’re digging out. ” That kind of stuff, fine, but anything that’s going to take any amount of time to deal with

And even the seeds starting. I don’t have room for that, time for that this year. So I will just buy some transplants. It’s not the end of the world. Get up.

Eve Kilcher:

I personally, that’s my least favorite part of gardening. I do not like doing starts. Yes, I do all my own because they’re so expensive, but there are times where I’m just like, “You know what? I’m not going to start these things because first and foremost, mine just never turn out how I want. I’m just going to buy them and it’s okay. I can buy some starts. I can not grow that. “

Anna Sakawsky:

Exactly. Let

Eve Kilcher:

That go. Yeah.

Anna Sakawsky:

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And when you’re trying to balance that with also doing the garden and also doing all these other things, and again, you have this season to do it in and then it stops, right? We’re trying to get as much done infrastructure wise and everything as possible. I’m like, “You know what? I would rather for the long run have that done and then just be able to focus on the garden next year and instead of trying to balance all of that together.” So that’s our current kind of North Star. But I was curious for you, have you thought about what is your North Star with homesteading in general? What is your kind of reason for wanting to homestead or what are you ultimately trying to accomplish? And does that kind of help guide some of your decision making with it?

Eve Kilcher:

Yeah. I mean, inevitably I love gardening. It really does fill my cup. So for me, the idea of not gardening at all doesn’t feel like something that would … I think it’d make me more sad than less stressed. Scaling it back would be a great place to start. And I did, in all honesty, scale it back a little bit last year, a little bit. I could definitely scale it back more, but I do enjoy it so much. I don’t feel like, for me, I’m like, the things I’d like to take out are not gardening because that one is just a … There’s just the things that … Also, it seriously helps my mental health, like being in the garden, in the dirt, with all of that life and just slowing down and weeding. I thoroughly enjoy that and it grounds me so much. I’m a very high strong, anxious person.

I need all the things to call me and ground me and keep me on the earth and rooted in what is real. So I find gardening has more benefit than drawback for me. I do not think that is for everyone though. I know a lot of friends who are like, “I just don’t really like this. It’s not bringing me joy anymore. I would just rather go to the farmer’s market and buy vegetables from all these lovely farmers.” And I’m like, “Do that. ” If that’s not bringing you joy, then let it go because there are other great options here. We have a very thriving farmer community that grows incredibly high quality organic produce, regenerative, sustainable, go to the farmer’s market and buy it if it’s not bringing you joy. So I think that what I’m trying to get in touch with is like, what isn’t really bringing me enough joy or having enough benefit mental and physical that I can get rid of.

And a lot of that for me is like the … For me, it was the animals and we had a lot of catastrophes with animals last year. We had my favorite milk goat, have a bad birth, baby was stuck. And we’ve had this happen a lot, not this exact scenario, but babies getting stuck, reaching in. It’s very dramatic. It’s very stressful, but we get the baby out, mom’s usually fine. Sometimes babies survive, sometimes they don’t. I’m kind of used to that, don’t love it. But we had my favorite milk go die because we tried to assist and we actually harmed her in trying to assist, which it’s like we don’t have a vet that can just be there and help us or do a C-section. We didn’t have a lot of options. I know we weren’t at fault, but it just was like one of those things where I was like …

Anna Sakawsky:

Yeah. Yeah.

Eve Kilcher:

I mean, it’s just, I was like, “I don’t want to do this anymore. This isn’t working for me. ” Sorry. Yeah.

Anna Sakawsky:

Oh, no, not all. I mean, it is though. It is emotional and this is the real raw part that a lot of people don’t necessarily see, especially people that are just getting into homesteading everything. It’s hard too. And-

Eve Kilcher:

It’s hard when you’re rurally everything, right? And I just had to go, “You know,

I don’t want to be a vet. I don’t want this to fall on me when maybe there was nothing else we could do. ” Maybe that was inevitable, but it’s so hard to grapple with the fact that maybe I, in error, killed my favorite milk coat.That is hard to sit with. And I think that’s when I was like, this animal thing and trying to give an animal its best life and the gravity of that is too heavy. It empties the cup. It weighs me down. It’s not setting me free. It’s the benefits are not outweighing the cons at this point in time. For me and who I am and what I enjoy, no longer serving me.

Anna Sakawsky:

Yeah, totally. Well, and animals are a whole different ballgame too. They are something that you have and then made a commitment to that you have to see that through. You can’t just go, “You know what? I’m going to let them rot in the ground this year.” You have to, no matter what’s going on in your life, right?

Whereas a garden, you can kind of decide, I’m not going to do it this year or whatever. And obviously with animals, you can decide to get rid of them for a season or whatever, but yeah, that brings up this idea of like having to decipher first of all, what are the things that you have to do versus the things that you want to do? Because obviously the have to do is, those are going to be the first things that either need to get done or you need to eliminate them from your plate in some way if they’re not bringing you joy.

And so, and then from there though, like you said, with the garden, it maybe doesn’t have to be done, but it actually brings you joy. And so we don’t necessarily want to eliminate all of the things that are non-necessities just to clear our plate because some of those things might actually be the things that are adding in a positive way to our life, right? So what has been your process for figuring that out? It sounds like you know that with the garden and you kind of figured that with the animals in the garden, but how are you evaluating, I guess everything right now and deciding like, is this something that is worth keeping or something we need to let go of?

Eve Kilcher:

Yeah. Well, yeah. So back to sort of what I didn’t quite answer is, I mean, so the reason I started homesteading and growing my own food is because I deeply believe in knowing where your food comes from and the quality of food that I can produce is much more high quality than what I can buy in the store, especially at the end of the road in Alaska. Everything is about half rotten when it gets here. And so to me, that is a huge core piece of what began everything for me is stewarding the land and the earth and doing it in a regenerative, sustainable way, and at the same time, providing that incredible nutritious food for my family and also raising kids that are in touch with where their food comes from.

That is like the core of all that I started. And so that is really the base. I’m like, I still want to produce good, healthy food for my family. I’m not ready to let that all go, even though at times that feels like a lot. So for me, I feel like the things I want to shed and let go of are the things that aren’t as directly related to that core set of values. And the goats, yes, I milked them and they provided milk, but there’s other farmers that have milk goats and milk cows and I can get milk from them. And I just realized, I’m like, “I don’t need to do it all. ” I can still hold that core value, but it doesn’t have to be me. And so that is kind of the base at which I decide whether I want to do something or not.

So yeah, I guess a lot of what I’m trying to do is get rid of animals. The problem is Ivan and I have very different idea of what should happen with animals. He is very attached to our horses. I would get rid of them yesterday.

And so that is a whole nother level and dynamic, right? It’s not just me. I don’t get to just make executive decisions about what happens on our homestead without his input.

Anna Sakawsky:

Yeah. Well, that was another question I was going to ask you is, what is that like kind of navigating it together as a couple? Are you both more or less on the same page about what you want out of life and out of your homestead? Or has there been some tension or disagreements over what to keep, what to get rid of? And what advice would you give to other couples who are maybe in a similar season and need to have some tough conversations?

Eve Kilcher:

We have had, I mean, probably some of our bigger arguments. We were just told by this editor we were interviewing, he actually edited discovery and might edit our YouTube channel. We’re just in conversation, but something that he brought up is like, “You guys really come across as this perfect couple. Do you guys ever argue? Do you have any issues?” That can be really hard for people to relate to. We were like, “Ha ha.” I feel like Ian and I do get along really well. One thing to keep in mind is Ivan and I have known each other since we were five years old. We grew up on neighboring farms. We really got into this knowing exactly, not exactly, but if we didn’t have a pretty good idea of who each other were and what we were about, I mean, yeah, basically we had a great idea of who we were and we grew up together.

So that really helps, right? But Ivan and I do argue and one of our very big arguments and altercations, and we ended up actually having to see a therapist about it because it was a little bit of like neither of us, we couldn’t find the compromise, right? Marriage, life is compromise, right? It can lean one way or the other a little bit like, “Okay, I’m going to let you have that, but I’m going to have this. ” But this one was like an impasse and this happens and I really wanted to get rid of the horses. We don’t ride them, they don’t serve a purpose, they’re expensive. All the practical reasons, they’re just one more thing to keep alive, but both Ivan and I grew up with horses. We both had baby horses growing up. His horse that he had since he was like 11 was like his best friend.

He trained it. He spent every day of the summer with it. He has a bond and they’re like his mental health thing. Gardening is for me, horses are for him. Even though he doesn’t get to ride them, he loves them when he can spend time with them, they fill his cup, they bring him joy, they relax him, they regulate him. And so, I mean, basically what we came to was that I didn’t want to be responsible for them and he needed to take more responsibility for them.

And so basically just like take that homesteading task off my plate so I don’t have to think about them. And that’s sort of where we came to because it was sort of an impasse, but just like I wouldn’t want the thing that makes me happy taken away from me. I obviously wouldn’t want to do that for Ivan, but it was loaded. We were not in agreement. We do not get along all the time. And I felt really angry about it and bitter about it. I’m not going to lie for a while. But in the end, that’s what we decided. Whether we get rid of the horses eventually that may happen, but it’s just like he wasn’t ready now and that’s fine. We still have little kids, he wants them, not little, they’re big now, 10 and 12, but they love the horses, they want to be around them.

I’m going to let it go. I’m going to get rid of my goats. Right. There’s the

Anna Sakawsky:

Compromise.

Eve Kilcher:

I’ll get rid of my goats. Then those are my responsibilities. I get let go of that responsibility.

Anna Sakawsky:

Have either of you ever thought of giving up homesteading entirely? Has that ever been something that’s on the table or absolutely not?

Eve Kilcher:

As we’re getting older, I’m definitely starting to see how, I mean, it’s not sustainable for the super long run. And I do feel like winters are getting harder for us and everything in the winter is so hard here. It’s just like everything freeze. It’s just like literally everything is hard. And as you get older, that just weighs on you heavier. You don’t have that young, vibrant energy to just want to do the hard thing. And I’m like, “I can do hard things. I don’t mind.” But as we’re getting older, I am starting to be like, “Yeah, living here year round might not be what I want to do forever.” Yeah, so I don’t know.

Anna Sakawsky:

Yeah. I mean, I think it just speaks to that idea of like we can change and evolve and that’s okay. And sometimes it’s for a season and sometimes it is like we have to think about that stuff as well.Like I say, we’re only on a quarter acre. We have dreams of having a larger property, but we’ve also done so much work where we are. And my husband has been the main one building all the infrastructure, doing all of that. And it’s getting harder on him now as he’s getting older, but he’s still able to do it. And so we still talk about this property in the distance and one day and we’ll have this and, “Oh, maybe we’ll build our own house and we’ll do this. ” And I’m like, “We have to be realistic too, but what stage are we going to be at if and when that happens?

And are we going to want to start from scratch again? And are you going to be able to do that work? And am I going to want more land that I have to tender?” Is this enough too? I think, especially as homesteaders, most people have their site set on something more all the time, right? Something bigger or what’s the next thing I’m going to add. And it’s okay to go the other way too and be like, “Maybe I need less. Maybe this is enough.” If that doesn’t make you less of a homesteader, I don’t think to just be doing it on a smaller scale either or just … Yeah.

Eve Kilcher:

Yeah. I think we are both seeing that this … I think especially once our kids aren’t here anymore, like right now, this life I would not want … I mean, the reason I live this life is for my children. This vision was based in providing food and the lifestyle for my children and my family. And so I feel like once they’re not here and if they don’t want to participate in this anymore, then things might look a little different. And I think it’s once again that ability to adapt and change as life and the people around us and ourselves change. I mean, I can’t ever imagine not living here per se, but maybe if our kids move away, we’re not here all the time. And yeah, that would mean letting go of maybe some of the more traditional homesteading lifestyle elements.

Anna Sakawsky:

And then on the other hand, you may have some more time to put into certain things to do a big garden again or whatever. I know because I have kids that … I have a nine year old and a three year old and we’re in that same season of tension between like we do this for them and we want to expose this to them, but also I don’t want it to come across, I guess, to them as it’s always work, right? It’s always like, we got to get this and no, we can’t go do that because we have to do this because then I worry that they’re just going to grow up and go, “I don’t want to do that. I just remember it just being work all the time.” And I know this was something that you mentioned on that YouTube video you had said, there was a couple of things that you said that really struck me.

The first was you said it’s just hard to find a balance between the homestead and working and being a mom and taking care of the kids’ needs and all the things. And I think every mom, including me was just nodding along with you at that point. Homesteader or not, I think moms in general are like, yeah, it’s constantly like, how do you balance doing these … It’s even like I’m doing this coaching program right now, a fitness coaching program and And the woman that I’m working with, she’s like, “The number one thing I hear from women is I’m doing this for my kids, but that’s also where their excuse comes in. ” It’s like, “I can’t because I got this for the kids.” And it’s like, how do you balance all these things that you’re trying to do for your kids and give them the best life?

And how do you draw the line between one thing and another? And then the other thing that you said was that you often find yourself wishing the time away. So you had mentioned, again, the fact that you live in one of the most beautiful places in the world, and it’s especially beautiful in the summer. And yet that’s the time when you typically find yourself so busy that you end up just wishing for it to be over. And again, I think this idea can also apply to kids. We tend to wish time away. It’s like, oh, they just can’t wait to go out of diapers and I’m not doing that anymore. And I can’t wait till they can drive themselves places. And then it’s over. But that was the whole reason we were doing it.

Eve Kilcher:

Wait, I wanted to be a mom.

Anna Sakawsky:

And again, I don’t expect you to have the answers. These are like those age old answers that we all continue to ask ourselves. But for you, what has it been like to wrestle with this and how do you decide how much time and intention to give your homestead versus how much margin to allow to just be a mom and enjoy where you live and take your kids on trips and enjoy the fruits of your labor? How are you trying at least to figure that out?

Eve Kilcher:

Yeah. Well, so I also think another thing is, this is one of those things, once again, it’s like an assessment of who you are. I follow some homestead mamas on social media and they’re like, motherhood is it for me. It is the thing I want to do. I don’t want really anything else. And I’m like, wow, that’s amazing. And I’m like, “That isn’t me. That’s not what’s good for me. ” I’m like, “That is beautiful. I respect that. That is so awesome. You want to have seven kids and being a mother and living the homesteading lifestyle is all you need. That is wonderful. That’s not who I am. I am a person that needs to be engaged intellectually. I need self-care. I need away from my children. I need to have purpose outside of my children. I need to have my own goals and business endeavors.

And I am just not a person that can only be a mother. And I also am not a person that only wants to be a homesteader.

I also want to do something greater than that and engage with the world in a bigger way. And so in that, I’d say it’s a step-by-step everyday assessment. I have been more … So in the past, I volunteered at my kids’ school a lot. That’s taken a lot of my time, especially when they were younger. They’re getting older and I’ve just realized I have to say no to that a lot more because I’m moving into a season where I want to learn more about who I am separate from my children. And so I’m working on a lot of really fun, exciting business endeavors and trying to launch different things that are more about me and a greater community and who I am and what I want to give back. And I’m like, one of the things I want to give to the world is my children and good, healthy humans.

That was my purpose for a really long time. That was the top of the list. Everything else could fall away. And the volunteering at this school and letting the garden go or the things, the kids were there. They are 10 and 12 now. Now I can be like, ” Hey, I need to leave you home for a couple hours while I go do some things that I need to do. I’m going to go on a ski, work on my mental health. I’m going to go do some work, go do a meeting. “And so I’m like, this is really the seasons thing and the day-to-day thing of where are you? You are at three and nine. That is a very different phase. That’s an all- in phase. Like you are all in to the number one is I got these humans that I have to like fall all in.

There is not a lot about me right now. Yeah, I have to work a bit and do your job, but there’s also them. And so for me, I think I am right now doing a lot of trying not to parent as much. That is the phase I’m moving into and that’s been really hard, but this isn’t applicable to everyone in their phase of life. And so I think that is one of the big things I’ve actually been doing and stepping away from is I’m realizing at this age, less parenting is more. They need to fail. They need to fall. I don’t need to solve all their problems. They need to cook their lunch now. I can leave and say,” You need to cook your own lunch today.

“I think we can do this when they’re younger too, but this is where I’m actually really starting to step back and realizing my kids are getting older in a blink of an eye. They are not going to even live here anymore. And who am I when they are gone? What am I doing? At 42, what do I want this next chapter of my life to look like? I have this opportunity to give back to the world now and kind of like reinvent myself. What is this last endeavor that I’m going to do before I’m like getting older and being a grandparent or something? So that I’d say for me personally is what I am stepping away from and letting go of. I am letting go of like animals and practical things and stepping things back on the homestead, letting things be, but I am just stepping back from parenting a lot in that I, over parenting sort of way, I’m realizing like I did a lot of that and now it’s time to let go.

Anna Sakawsky:

Well, okay. And let’s talk about some of your other endeavors as well, because one of the things that you and Ivan have been doing is growing your YouTube channel and your online presence. Obviously Alaska, the last frontier. When did it stop airing? 2017 or something like that. Does that sound right? Something. And then so now you guys are kind of more leaning into … I mean, the beauty of social media and YouTube and the online spaces, it has kind of democratized this ability to share your life with the masses, right? You don’t necessarily need to be on a reality show anymore to do that. So it’s opened a lot of doors for a lot of people. That’s why there’s so many people in the homesteading community now. There’s so much competition online because there’s so many people that are doing this, but it also creates its whole own kind of pressure because it could just never stop.

And I think, and I’d be interested to know how you view doing the online thing and the YouTube thing versus being on TV where it’s a little bit more directed, there’s a little bit more guardrails on it, like this is when we’re filming, this is how we’re going to do it. I would imagine that with YouTube and stuff, it’s like you could technically always have the camera on, right? I’m sure there’s always an opportunity where you’re like, “Oh, we should be making content out of this, ” but also like we need to be doing the thing and that slows us down. How are you guys navigating kind of showing up online and sharing yourselves in the online world with actually balancing getting the work done as well? How are you finding that?

Eve Kilcher:

Yeah, that has always been a challenge, but it’s one we’ve been doing a really long time. I have to say that challenge was the same with Discovery as it is now, right? It is. Even with Discovery, we were not always doing the thing that we wanted to do. I mean, that was a win if we got to, but yeah, it was still a challenge back then to actually manage the homestead and do what we really needed to get done and then give them what they wanted or … So that challenge is the same through and through.

I didn’t love the discovery thing in the beginning just because it was very limiting. They wanted certain things and we didn’t always get the creative freedom to give what or show what we wanted to show. And so it’s been like a rough road, like doing everything ourselves and filming everything, being the producer, the cameraman and the talent, but I am starting to find a lot more joy in it because I can really show what I want to show and what lights me up and give … A lot of times on discovery, I felt like I was asked to do things like more that I wasn’t actually really good at doing or … It just wasn’t easy. I didn’t get to show my light, my talents always. And so yes, it is hard. We could run the camera all the time, for sure. Our business manager and other people that help us with our online business are always like, “Oh my gosh, everything you do is interesting.

That’s what you need to realize.” And I’m like, “Oh yeah, right.” So we’re getting better at that, turning the cameras on more, but it is hard inevitably to balance the two. But I have to say it’s much easier now because we can … Everything that we decide more or less to do on YouTube is something we want to do, need to do. And so that is, or on any social media platform. So that has been really liberating and we are really like hitting our stride, it was like hard creating the team we needed and to make all the things happen and to fill in the gaps where we’re really not good at certain things. And I feel like we’re getting there, right? It’s like up and down road and there’s a lot of competition and that can be really discouraging, right? It’s like we had some really good episodes on YouTube that did really well, and then we’ve had a couple that have just flopped.

And like the mind game of that is not easy, right? Because it’s all on us. It’s a little more personal than like

Anna Sakawsky:

… Yeah. Well, and you’re dealing with algorithms differently than you’re dealing with like a TV slot where they’re all given equal airtime or whatever. I’m sure there sounds like there’s pros and cons to each for sure.

Eve Kilcher:

Yeah.

Anna Sakawsky:

I know for us, like the biggest thing, like we dabbled in YouTube for a little bit, but again, we found it so difficult to be the one setting up the … If we had a camera man here or something great, we’re just doing it. “Oh, we got to set up and take down and we’ve got two hours left of light and we’ve got to just … Or even now doing all these projects, we always forget to just take before pictures. I’m like, how hard is it to just go out and take a picture when there’s still a pile of crap out on the property before we turn it into whatever we’re doing? But we don’t because we’re like, ” We just got to go on it. “I always find that that’s a tough balance between just actually trying to get the work done and also trying to make content out of it, right?

So I applaud you guys, especially knowing how frantic it can be in the summer, but obviously that’s probably when you get a lot of your best content because there’s just so many things that you could be filming,

Eve Kilcher:

Right? Yeah. It’s hard. I have to say we are starting, how old are we now, 42, to plan accordingly with the help of our business manager. It’s amazing when you have someone from the outside going like, ” Hey, let’s try to get ahead on YouTube videos when you guys aren’t so busy and so that there isn’t that extra pressure, right? We have a little bit of a buffer margin.

Yeah, a little margin. Let’s create all this content now and then yes, of course we’re going to film in the summer because so much cool stuff is going on, but there’s just a little less pressure. And so we are working on that. But yeah, it’s really, really hard. It’s been a steep learning curve. Like you said, we are still constantly, I’d say every single episode not getting one thing that we need. It’s just so hard to be the person doing it and producing it and filming it. I mean, your brain is literally trying to be three completely different jobs at the same time. Totally. So it’s fun. Well,

Anna Sakawsky:

You guys are doing a great job. I’ve really been enjoying watching your channel. And like I say, it was that YouTube video that brought me back to you in the first place and reached out and said, Hey, I would love for you to talk more about this and come on the podcast. But you’re also, you’ve written already an article for an upcoming issue of the magazine. So that’s actually going to be coming out in the May, June issue, which is the one we’re working on now. So for anybody listening to who’s maybe not yet subscribed, you can, at the time that this podcast episode first airs, if you’re listening to it, you can still subscribe and your subscription will actually start with that issue. And if you dive a lot more into kind of

Eve Kilcher:

This

Anna Sakawsky:

Season of life that you’re in and share more tips on managing overwhelm and finding balance

As a homesteader. So again, you can go to homesteadliving.com/subscribe now to start your subscription. I’m going to end this with a question that I ask most of our guests. I’m always just interested to know because the answer always differs just a little bit, but there’s some common threads with people’s answers to this. And so it’s just, how would you actually define homesteading in the modern context? Like you mentioned when Yule Kilture first came over, it was like that Alaska was still part of, that land was still under the Homestead Act at that time. And that’s how still people who are not maybe familiar with homesteading just learning, but still think of it like homesetting, oh, that’s getting free land, right? Obviously it’s changed a lot and it totally means something different nowadays, but it means a little bit of something different to everybody. So what does it mean to you to be a homesteader?

Eve Kilcher:

So we’ve actually talked about this a lot. I feel like homesteading is more of a mindset now. Obviously people are not getting free land and it’s that self-sufficiency, resilience and ability to problem solve and in the moment and basically kind of work with what you have and with the land that you are on. And whether that is maybe only a pot on your little apartment patio that has a tomato and some basil in it. To me, that is a mindset. That is you wanting to just connect with what it is to be with the land, be with plants, grow things. I feel like that can also just be connecting to your fellow farmers and homesteaders, going and working on a farm, making sure you’re buying local when you can.

That is homesteading to me. Homesteading now is this big, beautiful, broad term that is really just about being in touch with the land and how we steward it, and also being connected to where your food comes from and supporting each other in that journey. I feel like homesteading really needs to be more about community and all working together and not all doing it all and kind of lifting each other up and just creating those beautiful communities where we all support each other and we all have our different talents and strengths and gifts. And when you come together, all these different people with all these different abilities and knowledge, I mean, we are unstoppable. And I think this like stalwart independence that we think homesteading is, is really not helpful, nor actually what it was about. I’m fairly certain back in the day, you all was connecting with other homesteaders and they were all helping each other out because they’re all they had, right?

They were out in the wilderness and you would totally draw upon your neighbor if something was going awry. That’s all you had. And so I think just that, not forgetting that, that like community aspect. And that’s what I’m really excited about and I’m starting to work on as like kind of my dream is creating a community basically and helping people navigate their homesteads and their communities and how do you not do it all, not get stressed out. How do we do it together?

Anna Sakawsky:

Yeah. I love that. And I think that that is becoming much more integrated into the kind of vernacular of the modern homestead community is this idea of community sufficiency and building community, building relationships and networks within your local community, within the online community, and not trying to do absolutely everything by yourself and be this rugged individualist. And even following along with Alaska the last frontier, I mean, there was a reason we followed the whole family. It wasn’t just one person doing everything, right? It’s like one person had the herd of cattle, right? Otto had the herd of cattle and then somebody else did this part and you did the gardening and like they were showing all these different aspects of, not that you can’t dabble in a little bit of everything, but people have their strengths naturally. I’m not going to lie, I couldn’t do half of what we do on our property without my husband because I can’t build anything, that’s not me.

But he couldn’t do it alone without me either because I do a lot of the things that are not necessarily in his wheelhouse or that he wouldn’t devote the time to. So right there, that’s where it starts. And then you kind of go build out there outward from your family into your community and-

Eve Kilcher:

Exactly. Yeah.

Anna Sakawsky:

Well, thank you so much for being here today and just sharing just such a real honest conversation about the realities of trying to homestead in the modern world.

I feel, and I’m sure I’m not alone in this, that it’s just so refreshing to hear it, especially from somebody like you, to talk about homesteading so candidly and know that you face the same human struggles that we all face, right? Even with the advantage of having family land passed down or having been on a reality show that actually paid for you guys to homestead for a period of time, like just knowing that, because I think oftentimes, I know I even feel like this and I’m in the homesteading community a lot just because I work with a lot of people in this industry, if you want to call it that, right? A lot of the people that are doing things online, YouTube channels, blogs, all that. And still, I look at some of the things they’re doing. I’m like, how are they doing that? I can’t do that.

They have 10 children and everything’s working like clockwork. I’m like, “I have two and I feel like everything’s falling apart some days, right?” Yeah, I think this will resonate probably with a lot of people just because, especially for those people trying to do it all and struggling to find the balance and just thinking like, “Is there something wrong with me? ” I know I have felt that before. “What’s wrong with me? Why can’t I do it? “That person’s doing it. But usually, again, we’re only being shown one side of it. So just hearing about the part that we don’t necessarily get shown all the time is helpful.

Eve Kilcher:

Yeah. Yeah. And you just don’t know what you don’t know, especially when looking in on people’s lives online. I mean, if I can say anything is sometimes it’s really good to take a break from that.

Anna Sakawsky:

Yeah, 100%. Well, that’s the thing, right? We fall into the comparison trap and even just hearing from you, oh, the YouTube channel, but we have a business manager and we have somebody that helps edit it, then at least we’re not going, ” How are you doing all this? And you’re sitting down and editing. “No, and this is what happens with a lot of people that we see online too and obviously on TV and stuff, but there’s a team helping make it happen. No one person can do everything,

Eve Kilcher:

Right? Yeah. And I have to tell you, we haven’t had a team until recently and now we’re curating this beautiful team and yeah, it’s had ups and downs. We’re currently trying to find a new editor and things like that. But I’m also like, this brings me such joy now that we’re not alone, right? We as humans are social creatures. We are meant to do this in community. And even if our business managers in Canada, we have a meeting every week, it gets me excited and I don’t feel overwhelmed. That feeling of like, ” I just can’t do this. There’s no way. When are all the hours in the day? “And I have a meeting with her and she’s like, ” Okay, all you need to do is A, B, C and I’m going to take care of everything else. Don’t even think about that. “And it’s like, ” Oh, okay.

“It’s

Anna Sakawsky:

So much more doable now, right?

Eve Kilcher:

Even someone just being like, ” I need you to do A, B, and C. Can you do that this week? “And I’m like, ” That I can do. “Especially when you want it out like that.

Anna Sakawsky:

Totally. Well, I think a lot of home centers can relate to that too. Sometimes you’re just like, ” Can you just tell me? Just tell me what to do because you can feel so responsible for all of it. It’s like, where do I even start? What should I do? Where should I focus? “And having somebody just be like, ” Here is what you need to do, this, this, and this. Okay, great. I’ll go do that.

Eve Kilcher:

“Awesome. And I’m like, ” Yeah, maybe we’re not making as much money because we’re paying other people to help us, but in the end, we are going to succeed and make more money and be more successful and accomplish these beautiful dreams we have because we have a team and a team that’s into it, having fun, they’re good at this, I’m good at that. “It’s just all that same mindset, right?

Anna Sakawsky:

Well, and again, it comes back to balance, right? What’s your time and your peace of mind worth, right? It’s not always about the actual bottom line, but there’s other things that we need to factor into that too.

Eve Kilcher:

Right, right. Totally.

Anna Sakawsky:

Awesome. Well, okay, before we wrap up, where else can people follow along with you and your family? Learn more about your homestead. Give us all the shameless plugs right now.

Eve Kilcher:

Yeah, shameless plugs. Yeah. Well, I have to say the thing I’m most excited about right now that is launching at the end of March, beginning of April, fingers crossed is we are starting our own online community. It’ll be super affordable and basically the first people that join us are going to get all these fun perks for basically riding along on this awesome ride. And I’ve been filming tons of incredible informational content and writing and have basically created almost a whole online cookbook. And yeah, so we’re doing that and that’s what I’m most excited about right now just because- Where can

Anna Sakawsky:

People learn about that?

Eve Kilcher:

That is on our website, Ivananevekiltcher.com. And basically you can find everything on our website, our social media, Ivan’s YouTube channel is Ivan Kilchour Homestead, and we do a weekly video there. We’re really working on making those videos more both of us. It’s been a lot of Ivan, but we’re homesteading is not in a vacuum. This homestead only runs because of both of us.

Anna Sakawsky:

Yeah. Well, and you guys honestly do have such a nice dynamic on film. Y guys are so unpleasant to watch. And I’m sure that you guys have your arguments and everything behind closed doors, don’t we all, right? But it’s been a pleasure watching and being along for the journey right from the beginning to where you guys are at now. So

Eve Kilcher:

Yeah, just go check us out at IvananeveKilter.com and you can find out all the fun things we’re doing and all that we’re about to launch. And then of course Instagram. I’m on there regularly with stories, Eve Kilchure and that kind of keeps you up to date on all the fun things and just life and the day to day and just like the chaos. I try to show it all. I know I don’t always, but yeah, the ups and the downs, the goods and the bads.

Anna Sakawsky:

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining me here today and thanks to everybody listening. I hope that this conversation gave you some encouragement and maybe some practical ideas for navigating your own homestead as we head into the spring and summer months. And if you enjoyed this episode, be sure to like, subscribe and consider leaving a review so we can continue to reach more people who can benefit from these conversations. All right, guys. So until next time, keep building what matters and we’ll see you all back here on the next episode of The Coop. Before we wrap up today, I just want to thank you, our listeners, for being a part of this community. If you’ve been listening for a while and haven’t yet joined us as a subscriber, this is your sign to start your subscription to Homestead Living Magazine. A Homestead Living subscription includes six beautifully printed issues each year, and they’re designed to be kept, dog eared, bookmarked, pulled off your shelf and referred back to you again and again.

Every issue is filled with practical skills, seasonal guidance, and trusted voices who’ve put in the hours and learned the hard way so that you don’t have to. Right now, a full year, all six issues is just $49, and it is one of the best ways to support the work that we do here while building a home library that you’ll return to again and again. As the editor, I may be a little bit biased, but if you value thoughtful, authentic, grounded guidance from people who don’t just talk the homesteading talk, but actually walk the homesteading walk, then this magazine was made for you. So you can start your subscription now by heading to homesteadliving.com/subscribe or click the link in the show notes.

Suzanne Tabert:
Finding different ways to incorporate the herbs throughout all of the seasons as the seasons change will enable us to have a robust immune system, be able to fight off what’s coming our way, and be more resilient to stresses, day-to-day stresses, and then the big ones that happen as well. One of the mottos at my school is get the medicine of the people in ways they’ll enjoy taking so that healing can occur. And I have never met a person who doesn’t like a good chickweed burrito.

Anna Sakawsky:
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I’m your host, Anna Sakawsky, editor-in-chief of Homestead Living Magazine, the magazine for Homesteaders Buy Homesteaders. And today I am joined by another one of our contributors to talk all about how herbs and simple lifestyle shifts can support our wellness through each season of the year and through the different seasons of our lives as well. So Suzanne Tabert is a bioregional herbalist, author, and educator with nearly four decades of experience teaching the art and science of plant medicine. She is the founder and director of herbal education at the Cedar Mountain Herb School, a proud member of the American Herbalist Guild and the American Herb Association, a partner in education with United Plant Savers, and she serves as a practicum supervisor and adjunct faculty member at Best Deer University. Drawing from a lifetime of personal and academic study of plants and their habitats, Suzanne has dedicated her life to teaching herbal medicine and to sharing her love and knowledge of plants with the world, a passion she plans to pursue for the rest of her life.
So I am so honored to have Suzanne here with me today as we explore how to work with the plants growing around us, especially as we head into spring to gently refresh the body, calm the nervous system and strengthen immunity and align ourselves more closely with nature’s rhythms. So Suzanne, welcome to the show.

Suzanne Tabert:
Thank you so much for having me. I am absolutely thrilled and I appreciate the opportunity.

Anna Sakawsky:
Well, so nice to have you here. I think you’ve been a contributor for a couple years at least now with the magazine and have written some really great articles, obviously related to herbalism, but a lot of them really do tie in this idea of using different herbs through different seasons and whatever we’re going through in that particular season. And you just recently wrote an article on spring cleansing with herbs to match with this season. That’s kind of what gave me the idea for this episode and to kind of expand on that and move through the different seasons of the year, but also look at how those mirror some of the different seasons in life and some of the herbal practices and lifestyle protocols that we can maybe be implementing to support ourselves at different times. So before we dive in though, I would love to just hear a little bit more about your background, your journey into herbalism and what being a bioregional herbalist actually means.

Suzanne Tabert:
Alrighty. So I’ve been playing with my plants my entire life. So I remember when I was a little girl, I grew up in a suburb of Chicago, actually born in Pittsburgh and then moved when I was small with my parents and siblings to Chicago. And I was always the one who was underneath the fur trees and picking little wild violets and putting them in vases that were my great-grandmas that she had given me. My dad gave me a plot in his garden. It was probably like three feet by three feet. And one year I grew potatoes because that’s what I chose that year. Fast forward till I was like 19 and living in Seattle area and in an urban area of Seattle. And I’d be the one looking at the weeds and the empty lots and I’d be scraping oak bark to make a tea for my face when I was breaking out.
So it’s something that I’ve always done. And I turned my passion, my love for plants into a business. And by the way, when I was growing up, I had 29 plants in my bedroom. And when you opened up the door, it was like this wall of oxygen that would come out. And it was so dreamy. That was my apartment. I wanted to live there. I didn’t want to live in the regular rest of the house. I just wanted to live with all my plants and they’d be on my nightstand on my dresser hanging in macrame that I made by myself. And if you look at my bedroom now, I have about 20 something plants hanging from macrame that I’ve created myself on my nightstand, on my dresser. So it’s never changed. This is a thread, loving the plants and being with the plants, working with them, loving them, literally my entire life.
And I had an aunt who passed away about 20 years ago and she was just a week shy of her 100th birthday. And she took me by the hand and she started teaching me the medicinal parts of the plant. So she took my passion just for plants in general and said, “You know what? You can use these for medicine.” And this is what my mom, which is my great-grandma, how she kept us healthy. So it’s very strong. Herbalism is strong in my blood and it’s strong in my heart too. And I started teaching my first herb class. I was in my late 20s, so that was 40 years ago. I work with the plants that live around me and I live in North Idaho. And North Idaho, the bioregional really encompasses the coast as well. So the Pacific Northwest, Inland West, we’re technically still Pacific Northwest.
So the plants that grow here, that are adapted here, that thrive here, when we use them, we adapt to the area. We’re healed by the area and we thrive in the area in which we live. So I don’t buy plants from Bolivia or what have you because my body really doesn’t know what to do with those. And I’m a wildcrafter. So if I’m taking my students out, I need to know the plants that live in my bio region. So that in a nutshell, to me, is what bioregional herbalism is.

Anna Sakawsky:
That’s really interesting. So I mean, because there are some herbs, I guess, that maybe we think of as being more exotic or from elsewhere. Do you incorporate anything that doesn’t grow in your region, in your wellness protocol?

Suzanne Tabert:
I don’t. I don’t need to. Everything I need is here, right? I think that God put me here for a reason, put where these plants are that I can use, I can teach about, and I could lead other my apprentices and my day students into understanding their place in this world, in this particular corner of the world. So I don’t buy plants from elsewhere ever.

Anna Sakawsky:
Now, I would presume there are certain herbs and plants that grow in many different regions. Can people who maybe don’t live in the Pacific Northwest still apply some of what we’re going to talk about?

Suzanne Tabert:
Absolutely. Dandelions grow everywhere. Dandelion’s one of my favorite plants. Nettles grow just about anywhere that they can find a moist area to grow in. Chickweed grows in the gardens. It’s a so- called weed, but to me it’s medicine and it grows there. So I’m writing a book right … Well, I just finished writing a book called The Foragers Apothecary, and they wanted me to write about all wild plants. 50 actually ends up being close to a hundred plants that I wrote about for all the regions. So yes, hickory doesn’t grow here. And it’s really nice for me to know about hickory because I found that fascinating with how the bark is so shaggy and it kind of looks like bacon. But at the same time, the medicine in the hickory is the same as the medicine in the oak, right? And there’s some in other plants as well that grow here.
So I find that many of the plants that we’re going to talk about today, they either grow in all the regions where people will be listening from, or there will be a plant that can be applied equally medicinally and nutritionally as well.

Anna Sakawsky:
Okay, perfect. Okay. Well, good to know. Well, let’s get into it because I’m really excited to dive into this conversation. Obviously, we’re so disconnected from nature and from the seasons in our modern life. Even homesteaders, I find even those of us who actually feel like we live pretty in tune with the seasons in the land, a lot of us still work indoors a lot of the day on computers and keep kind of the same pace all year long. And so yeah, I’m just really excited to get into this conversation about how we can use different herbs and lifestyle protocols throughout different seasons of the year. So I feel like the fitting place to start is spring because A, we’re heading into spring right now. B, as I said, you just wrote an article on spring cleansing with herbs for the latest issue of homestead living.
And C, just because spring seems like even though the nature of seasons is cyclical, spring turns to summer turns to fall, turns to winter, turns to spring again, we still kind of look at spring as the natural starting point because it is the season of kind of birth and renewal and all that sort of thing. So why is spring, in your mind, traditionally associated with cleansing and renewal? And is there an actual physiological basis or need for cleansing our bodies?

Suzanne Tabert:
So a spring cleanse essentially helps us to get ready for the heavy work that’s ahead. The tilling, the planting, the birthing of maybe somebody has a sheep or goats and anybody who has that and has been at birthing, it could be a lot of work. And so we need to prepare our bodies. And the grandparents, the great grandparents, the ancestors before that, they always moved with the seasons because they didn’t have the computers to sit in front of and some of them didn’t have running water, some of them didn’t have electricity. So they moved with how the light was and the light is getting longer and the days are getting longer and we need to prepare ourselves for that. Right.

Anna Sakawsky:
Okay. I mean, that makes sense certainly from an ancestral context, I guess. Does that still stand in the modern world? If we have adapted and changed and we say keep a certain pace all year long, do we still need those naturally? Say for somebody who’s not homesteading too, maybe we’re not planting and tilling the land and birthing animals. We’re just sitting at the computer just like we do it every month of the year. Do we still need that cleansing or can we just kind of carry on the same all year long?

Suzanne Tabert:
Well, carry on. Oh gosh, that’s what modern people do. We just carry on. And then our body has a lot of inflammation because we’re sitting, we’re just settled. And when we’re not moving, our lymphatic system isn’t moving very well. Our cardiac system, we have a heart and that heart is a pump and it goes like this and it moves the blood and the fluid through all the whole cardiac pathways, but our lymphatic system does not have that. So how do we get our lymph moving through movement? And it’s very … I’m a science geek too. So our lymphatic pathways and our cardiac pathways, they are right next to each other and these membranes are permeable. So lymphatic fluid can go into the blood, what’s in the blood, maybe pathogens, viruses, what have you, funguses can go into the lymphatic pathways so that our immune system can deal with that.
And if we’re just always sitting, if we’re … What’s the word for that? If it’s

Anna Sakawsky:
Stagnant.

Suzanne Tabert:
Stagnant. Yeah. If we’re stagnant, there’s no movement. So we need to have that movement and we can do that with certain herbs like cleavers. Cleavers used fresh will naturally help to move our lymphatic system, that fluid to …
Because our immune system can kill viruses and other pathogens all day long, but it also needs to excrete it out. Otherwise, we just get like, “Do you remember Charlie in the chocolate factory, Varuka salt, and she just got bigger and bigger and became a big old blueberry?” I always picture that if we can’t excrete out what our immune system is attacking and all the metabolites of our hormones breaking down and whatnot, we’re going to be like big old Varuka salts. And so we need that excretory action happening. And then we have plants that is going to help with that too. So move the lymphatic system and move the waste through our expiratory organs.

Anna Sakawsky:
Is this the only time of year we should be doing something like a cleanse or are there other seasons where that might be appropriate as well?

Suzanne Tabert:
I would say spring is your best time. I don’t recommend cleansing regularly, unless a person is in a state of eating a lot of highly processed foods and eating a lot of foods like wheat and dairy that’s causing inflammation and we need to move that out or we’ve just been sick and we feel better now and we’re doing our herbs to build up our body. We also need to make sure we keep excreting. And that way, I would say dandelion root infusions or decoctions, it really helps. And well, let’s talk about our liver for a minute. Our liver does over 500 different functions all the time. And during the day it’s digesting, it’s creating bile to center gallbladder, which then goes mixes with the enzymes from the pancreas and goes into our small intestines so that we can break down and process fats. And it’s a kind of a recycling center.
Everything, the blood goes through to be filtered and that needs to be cleaned out too. So if somebody is feeling … I’m just going to stand up for a second. Our liver … Oh, can’t get to my liver, huh? Our liver is right about here, right? Kind of where the middle of our ribcage is. And if we are having pains there, if we are having issues, then a liver cleanse might be a good thing to do. However, doing cleanses all the time will actually debilitate our system and weaken our entire body system over time. So strategic cleanses during the year as needed, and definitely in spring to, like I said, just get you ready for the season.

Anna Sakawsky:
Yeah, that makes sense. And just for listeners too, I mean, obviously our bodies are cleansing all the time, right? We have systems like our lymphatic system and our digestive system and all that in place so that we can be taking the good, the nutrients, all the things that we need, using those in our body, and then getting rid of all the waste and toxic things that accumulate. So it’s not that we’re not constantly cleansing, but we’re talking about doing a deeper, like an herbal cleanse or incorporating certain lifestyle changes. Maybe it’s like fasting, that sort of thing, to do a bit of a deeper cleanse. Now, you dive into this again, just to mention, you go into a lot of detail on spring cleansing in your article for homestead living. So we won’t get too granular with that. If you are subscribed, be sure to check that article out.
That should have arrived in mailboxes already. And if you’re not subscribed yet, then make sure that you get subscribed. But beyond cleansing, what are some other ways that we can support the body in spring, whether energetically, emotionally, physically?

Suzanne Tabert:
Eat whole foods.
Our body is, I hate calling it a machine. I don’t think of it as a machine, but it has many parts that need nutrients to work. And when we’re eating highly processed foods like potato chips, like everything in the freezer aisle, that’s not just like a bag of frozen veggies, cereals in a box, that sort of thing. If it’s not a whole grain, then it’s highly processed and the food gets digested very quickly and it doesn’t have a lot of nutrients. It has a lot of flavor enhancers. It could have a lot of sugar, a lot of salt, that sort of thing. So take a look at the labels of the foods you’re eating, try to stay as whole as possible.

Anna Sakawsky:
That’s a good tip for all times of year, right? As much as we can be cutting out processed foods and eating whole foods, the better. And I think that a lot of our audience, nobody’s perfect. And I certainly have a sweet tooth and I get into certain things at certain times and my husband loves his chips and we’re all human and we all do that from time to time. But I do think that for the most part, we’re probably a little bit more conscious of that sort of thing and eating a healthy whole foods diet. But I wonder how that mimics what we’re talking about in terms of like seasonal herbs and seasonal, different ways that we can support ourselves and our health through different times of year and the plants that are available. Would you also say that there are certain foods that are naturally growing at this time of year that we should be looking to support things like cleansing and energizing our body in the springtime?

Suzanne Tabert:
Yeah. So go outside your house and look to see what’s coming up right now. I have a 4,000 square foot herb garden that has all kinds of things outside of the fence because I can’t stay within boundaries. And I’m constantly looking, what’s coming up now? Are there little green things coming up? And already chickweed is coming up. We too have been enjoying a very mild winter in North Idaho. And so I’m already eating my chickweed and chickweed, I love chickweed. It’s a really benign taste. One of my favorite ways to eat chickweed besides chopping it and putting it in a salad, and people can say, “Ugh, I can only eat so much salads.” Everybody loves a good burrito, right? So you get your tortilla, it could be gluten-free, it could be whatever you want and put in some beans. Now, beans are high in fiber that’s going to feed your lower gut and then cheese or no cheese if you want, but cut up some of that chickwheat and put it on the tortilla and then put on some salsa.
Maybe you have some salsa that you canned or your favorite salsa from the farmer’s market or grocery store and then you just roll that up and you eat that. It’s so satisfying. And so one of the mottos at my school is get the medicine of the people in ways they’ll enjoy taking so that healing can occur. And I have never met a person who doesn’t like a good chikweed burrito. And in the spring, one of my favorite things to make is pesto. And I make pesto with fresh dandelion tops, I mean, fresh nettle tops. So I just hit the first third and I know that you can find nettles right now where you’re living on Vancouver Island because I have a friend who lives in Concrete Washington and she sent me a picture of some nettles coming up, which is always the cause for celebration.
Yay. And so you just pick that top piece and you can use gloves if you want, I don’t. And then you put that in a food processor. I use a bit of nutritional yeast, fresh garlic, and then a good olive oil, and then I whirl that up until it’s really smooth. And what you’re getting from fresh nettles that you don’t get from dried is an anti-inflammatory effect. And inflammation can really happen anytime for any reason, whether it’s the food you’re eating, the stress that’s you’re enduring right now, anxiety, whatever it is. And the body really responds to the chlorogenic acid and the other compounds that are in the nettles to bring down that inflammation. So if you have a neck that goes out all the time because of inflammation or your fingers feel like sausages in the morning, nettle pesto is your friend. And you can put them into tiny little containers and put them in your freezer because the freezing is not going to destroy that antihistamine effect.
So take it out as you need it. And you know what comes in the spring, pollen, right?

Anna Sakawsky:
And pollen- It can be good or bad.

Suzanne Tabert:
Yeah. Yay. Yay. But the nettles help to take away that allergic reaction that somebody might be dying because of pollen, the nose that’s itching or maybe bleeding the watery, itchy eyes, whatever it is, nettle just works like a champ to take that away. And then I love dandelions. I love dandelions any time of the year, but especially in the spring and people say, “Oh, like you said, dandelion greens are so, they’re so bitter.” But you know how my great grandma used her dandelion greens? She sent my dad out together and she would put them in a big sauce pan where she had just made bacon. So she had all this bacon grease. She chopped up her dandelions and put it in there and just sauteed that up with the little onions and that was a little side dish. And the acidity of the fat, the acidity of the bacon, the meat itself
Will help to unlock the calcium and the iron that’s within the dandelions and help our bodies utilize it. And if we have enough iron, then we have a lot of energy. And so if somebody’s feeling, “I’m sluggish, I don’t know what’s going on. ” It could be that they’re low in iron and a test for the hematocrit can tell them. There could be many reasons why they’re feeling sluggish, but if it’s because they are low iron, then the nutrients, the iron that’s in dandelions and nettles that can be harvested this time of year would just be a boon to that person.

Anna Sakawsky:
Awesome. Okay, that’s a great tip. I do actually know where a nettle patch grows close to me. It’s actually at my kids’ old school, at their preschool, because I used to teach there as well, and there was a nettle patch there. And I’m so thankful that the school community kind of is minded towards keeping things natural and teaching the kids about this sort of thing. So they’ve actually kept the nettle patch. They have to mow it down so that it’s not too dangerous, but they’ll actually email me usually in the spring and be like, “The nettles are up if you would like to come harvest them.” So that’s where I usually get mine from. I’ve never actually had them fresh. I always dry them, but I have seen true miracles work from nettles. My daughter a couple summers ago, we were up at a family cabin and she got stung by a wasp and we didn’t have any type of antihistamine on us.
We drove all the way home. This poor girl had this swollen hand and then it was late and I said, “Okay, well, we can’t do anything until tomorrow. Drink some nettle tea because I knew there was natural antihistamines in it and then we’ll take care of it in the morning.” And she woke up in the morning, it was completely gone. So it really worked and that’s something that my husband does take regularly for seasonal allergies and that sort of thing. I’m always like, “Cake, get on it. You got to drink your nettle tea.” But it’s a really good tip. Nettles are a great early spring plant for sure. Now- They’ll be stronger if they’re fresh. Stronger if they’re fresh.

Suzanne Tabert:
Okay.histamine. So fresh infused vinegar, fresh infused tincture, alcohol

Anna Sakawsky:
Tincture,

Suzanne Tabert:
Or that pesto.

Anna Sakawsky:
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You head to azurestandard.com right now to get started. Again, that’s azurestandard.com. I do want to talk about some of the other seasons as well and some different herbs that can support us throughout the rest of the year. So if spring is about renewal and awakening, how does that shift as we move into summer and what sort of herbs support the body in this kind of hotter, busier season?

Suzanne Tabert:
So in late spring, we have Hawthorne flowers that start popping out. When the stamen are pink, they’re not pollinated and we can use that to create cordials or tinctures or infused vinegars. And that helps us, that Hawthorne itself will help us when we’re in the lemonal zone. And that lemonal zone is that place where what was, isn’t anymore and what is to be hasn’t happened yet. And this space can be confusing. It can be filled with anxiety. It can be grief. I’ve lost my job. I’ve lost a relationship. I lost a parent. Things are changing. I’ve moved and I don’t know what comes next. Well, what Hawthorne does is says, “I got you, honey. I’m going to walk with you. I’m not going to make what’s happened go away, that what happened has happened and what is to come isn’t here yet, but I’m going to support you.
I’m going to take the edge off. I’m going to kind of give you that nice big warm hug that you need right now that you may not be getting and just help you move through this liminal season in a way that is full of grace so that we can see the blessings that are always around us anyways. And if we’re so stressed out, we may not see them.” And I believe, I call Hawthorne hope and faith that everything is going to eventually be okay. And the thing is we take it consistently. We walk with it consistently. We let it hold our hand consistently. That’s one of my favorite plants. And so we’re using those unpollinated flowers and the leaves as well. Now, if we didn’t Get to those unpollinated flowers or the flower buds, in the summer we can use the leaves themselves. I’ll make a flour and leaf tincture, a leaf tincture, and then in the late summer when the Hawthorne berries are ripe, then I mash them, put them in a jar, and then I use the tincture that I’ve strained from the leaves and the berries or just the leaves and the flowers, I mean.
And I pour that over the berries. And so I get this double strength tincture of all those medicinal parts of the Hawthorne. And that Hawthorne can really help me move season to season. And then if I’m feeling really overwhelmed, I cannot cope at all. I use Tulsi, also known as holy basil. And I have a huge grain hopper. It’s probably, I don’t know, three, four feet by four feet. And it’s huge. And I grow my tulsi in there and I can do several. I can cut it back about four or five times a year and it just keeps coming back. And I use that as a tea and I use that as a tincture as well. Because what tulsi does is it takes away that overwhelming feeling. And we can be overwhelmed by life. We can be overwhelmed by all the work that needs to be done, whether it’s inside our house, in our garden, in our yard, in our flower beds, at work, whatever it is.
Sometimes we just can’t even. You get that feels like I can’t even. I know you can’t even. I’m going to take that feeling away so you can even, but let’s just take a rest and regroup while I’m working on you, okay? So it helps to just take away that feeling and- Make

Anna Sakawsky:
It down a notch. Yeah. Which is great in the summer months too, because that is usually the time of year when that I can’t even feeling really creeps up. I mean, obviously it can happen at any time and work and all these different things, but if you’re homesetting too and your garden, it looks like a jungle and you’re like, “I got to harvest this and I got to weed that and I got to can this. And I also have to balance work and all the things.” And you’re like, “I just can’t.” It can get so overwhelming. So anything to get

Suzanne Tabert:
Down

Anna Sakawsky:
A notch.

Suzanne Tabert:
Yep. That’s where Tulsa comes in. And let me tell you, you go into my garden, I have 11 raised beds and I would say a good third of them are Nervines because for me, I’m a gal who’s constantly on the edge of having a panic attack or something. And so I have, what do I have in there? I have mugwort, I have mother wart, I have valerian. I have an entire four foot by 14 foot race bed dedicated to lavender. And then I have lavender outside as well along the fence line with roses. I have roses. I mean, it just goes on and on all these nerve

Anna Sakawsky:
Ends. And nervines, for anybody who doesn’t know, what is the effect that they have on the body?

Suzanne Tabert:
There are different types of nervines. There’s adaptogens that help us to gain strength like Rishi mushrooms, like ashwagandha, which I grow as well, help us to gain strength so that we’re more resilient to what’s being coming our way. And then there are calming nervines like the mugwort that literally has monoterpenes, essential oils in it that are sedating and tranquilizing so that we can just go, take that deep breath that we really need. Because if we’re stressed out, we get shallow breathing. So mugwort really helps with that. And of course, the lavender, the mother ward, you look at the name of that plant itself. Its botanical name is Leonard’s Kardiaca. So it literally meet lion, hearted,
Right? Mother wart. Ward is an old English word, meaning plant. This is the plant of the mother. This is the plant that helps you when you feel like I am doing all the mothering and I’m not getting mothered at all, or I lost my mom. Or my mom was not the mom I wish I had. And there’s some grief in that. I just never got the mothering that I want. Mother wore it, what it does, it can nip a panic attack in the bud. It can take away your stress. It can cool a hot flash. It can calm you down. And it’s the herb that I find is a big cheerleader. It says, “You have a place in this world. You are worthy. You have purpose. Maybe you haven’t found it yet, but I know it’s in there somewhere.” And it’s just that hug, that motherly hug that we need.
So I have loads of mother wart and it’s a plant in the min family. When it drops a seed, wherever it drops a seed, it grows a plant. And it seeds are in this kind of like a little five finger bowl that’s real prickly at the end and it’s got four seeds in there. And I walk through, right? I have maybe a sweater on or my jeans and it attaches and it pokes me. And so I rub it off and I might be by my front door and it falls into a flower pot and there’s mother war growing or a deer sidles up

Anna Sakawsky:
Against

Suzanne Tabert:
It or a cat, whatever, and you get mother wart everywhere. So I always give away mother wart plants.

Anna Sakawsky:
Oh man, I wish I could grab one off you. We weren’t cross borders because I was growing mother war and I actually had to rip it out because it was going everywhere. But now I’ve got a specific garden bed that is more dedicated to those type of medicinal herbs before it was kind of just going a little bit wild. I had it too close to the house too, and it just got really big and unruly. And I didn’t really know what I was doing with it at the time. I had both mug wart and mother wart and wasn’t quite sure what the difference was when. So this is good to know. I will be growing mother wart again and I will be a little bit more careful about where it seeds itself.

Suzanne Tabert:
Oh my gosh.

Anna Sakawsky:
But I love these because again, and we’ll kind of touch on this in a sec about how different seasons maybe of our lives can mimic different seasons of the year. But again, if we’re kind of relating this to summer at this time where we can feel stressed, overwhelmed, like we need somebody to just hold us sometimes and be like, “It’s okay. We’ll get through this. ” And these are a lot of the plants that are in season and growing in summer. So again, it kind of comes down to like looking at what’s around us, using what is available in our area and at that time of year to support us through that season. Now, what about moving into fall because that kind of demands something different of us again, right? So how can we use herbs proactively maybe to fortify our immune systems, prepare for cold and flu season, and as well as moving indoors and kind of going more inward at this time of year?

Suzanne Tabert:
So I have a Maker’s Day within my apprenticeship program in September and a three day open to the public at the end of September as well. So we go into the garden, we go into the wild and we gather plants that are going to help us through the season to come. When we’re inside, we’re getting coughs and colds, we’re going to harvest wild cherry bark, we’re going to harvest pine because we’ll make a honey, an infused honey with pine needles or fur needles and some ginger that’s really warming and opening up. And then we’ll add some citrus, including the peels and make an infused honey that way. And you can take that as a cough syrup. And so we’re digging up my echinacea roots to make a tincture, to dry it. And we’re going in. My husband has a 5,000, it’s more than that now.
Yeah, it’s getting close to 10,000 square foot veggie garden and orchard. And so we go in there. The very last day of the apprenticeship program is let’s take all that we’ve learned and create a meal. So we’re harvesting out of his garden. We’re getting basil and basil is a bit calming. It’s a bit antiviral. We’re getting acorn squash and we’re stuffing it with herbs and like a good brown rice or quinoa. And we’re getting the oregano in thyme because thyme and oregano has spread throughout the summer. And I say to them, “We need to make a vinegar at a time oregano sage, and that’s going to help us an antiviral.” And we’re going to do an infused vinegar with that. And we also make what I call farm dust. So we’re taking herbs out of the garden, the thyme, the oregano, the margarum, the chives, some lavender.
If it’s still, we got a second bloom, all the some horseradish leaves as well, some levage that’s a nice diuretic to help flush. So we’ll put in the seeds and the leaves and we’ll take equal parts, herbs and salt and pulse it in a food processor until it’s really smooth and then add another part of salt. And I like to use the Pink Himalayan mineral salt because it’s full of minerals. And then I lay it out on a cookie sheet that has parchment or paper towel and let it sit overnight and then break it all up. And maybe I’ll pulse it in my coffee grinder to get it smooth again if it needs to. And then I’ll use that salt. I love layering throughout all of the seasons because if we say, “Oh, I got to drink another cup of tea. I’m not going to drink another cup of tea.
I don’t want to take tinctures, alcohol tinctures because I’m in recovery or it’s against my religion.” Finding different ways to incorporate the herbs throughout all of the seasons as the seasons change will enable us to have a robust immune system, be able to fight off what’s coming our way and be more resilient to stresses, day-to-day stresses, and then the big ones that happen as well.

Anna Sakawsky:
Yeah. No, I really like that idea of kind of layering on adding some fresh whatever that’s in season, maybe some that you’ve preserved, doing your teas, maybe making a salt out of it. So you’re putting that on as well, again, kind of comes back to … And this is what I hear actually a lot from it. And from any herbalist I speak to is they usually come back to this idea of get the herbs in the body any way you can. I think we get so … We like to put things in boxes. And when again, we think about medicine, we think about a particular type. Is it a syrup? Is it a tincture? Is it a cough drop or whatever we want to think of? How do I take this? And often when it comes to herbs, it’s like you take it whatever way you can get it in your body, right?
So there’s many different ways you can do this. And so for fall, again, we’re looking at things that are in season then, things like roots, right? Plants that have had time to fully mature and develop the root system. Burdock

Suzanne Tabert:
And dandelion, horse radish. We’ve harvested maybe our onions and garlic already and we have those. I have those in my pantry, a few still. And we’re using the roots because it’s going to help us ground and slow down and get … The roots hold the medicine and the nutrition for the plant to be able to burst forth in the spring. It gives them the energy, right? So if we’re taking in the roots, the beets, whatever it is, then we’re gaining strength within our body to just kind of settle in through the winter and then have enough adaptive ability and resilience to be able to get moving again in the spring.

Anna Sakawsky:
Right. Okay. Yeah, that makes so much sense. Okay. And then what about winter? Again, I think kind of fall almost bleeds into winter with some of the things that we’re eating and that sort of thing, the roots. But I always think of winter as that time of just kind of maybe low mood. It’s a time where we’re kind of resting, retreating, going really inward. We kind of need that deep nourishment before we lighten our load again in the spring and do all the cleansing and everything. So what kind of herbs can be really supportive at this time of year?

Suzanne Tabert:
Well, that’s where this all comes into play, right?
Right. I’ve dried my herbs over the spring, summer, fall, and I’ve got them in the jars and I utilize it. I don’t know if you can see right there. Those are my oats. So the oats are great nervine. It actually feeds, helps your nerve to be able to be strong enough for messenger transmission and resilience emotionally as well. So I really focus a lot on teas in the wintertime myself. And then maybe not so many salads, right? Because salads are bright and energetic. My greenhouse has all of my house … Well, like my big rosemary plant. It would die if I kept it outside in the Pacific Northwest, maybe not this winter, but my white sage is in there.
My eucalyptus is in there and they’re in huge, huge pots. So I don’t have room to grow my lettuce and my radishes and whatnot. So I can buy them and they come from a state far from me, which I’m not adapted to. And yes, I’m going to get nutrition and I’m going to get this wonderful taste, but I really do want to eat local again. So again, I’m making the stews, I’m making the soups. We grow … Well, we raise our own chickens and do our own butchering. So I have loads of chicken and bone broth.

Anna Sakawsky:
Yeah. I was going to say bone broth and you can add a lot of herbs to those type of things.

Suzanne Tabert:
Absolutely you can. And I use bone broth to cook beans. I use bone broth. I put a chicken bone broth in my chili that I made yesterday, and that adds that collagen that helps us to … Our connective tissue to be working really well helps our bones and all of that. So we think about what have we stored for the winter because we’re not growing it right now. And if you’re in a mild place and you do have herbs come up, that’s still herbs of that season for you, right? So you can use that. So I’ve had oregano this whole winter. Normally, we have three to five feet of snow and I don’t see my garden for, oh my Lord, months at a time. It just kills me. So I’m using my oregano because it’s available. So I say, use what’s available to you where you are locally.
Farmer’s markets are a great place to get things that you can’t grow yourself for whatever reason you don’t want to or you don’t have the space. And here where I live in Sandpoint, once a month, there’s an indoor market. And so the farmers are bringing in their carrots. They’re bringing in their beets and their potatoes and onions and garlic that they’ve stored. And so, again, local food really is

Anna Sakawsky:
Local

Suzanne Tabert:
Foods.

Anna Sakawsky:
Yeah, definitely the farmers. I was actually thinking about that when you were mentioning the nettle pesto. I was thinking, if I can’t get to making my own this year, I think that I’ve actually seen that at our local farmer’s market. So you can check there as well for certain things like that, certain type of preparations or foods that might be foraged that you’re not sure where to forage them, how to find them. We have somebody that brings mushrooms to market, that they’re able to forage in different seasons. And that’s something that I still haven’t learned enough about to be able to confidently go do that on my own. So yeah, another great untapped resource that obviously is really great for seasonal foods and herbs. Now, we’ve talked a lot about the seasons of the year, obviously, different herbs that can support us through those seasons.
What about the seasons of life though? So different emotional seasons that we might be in, stress, grief, rebuilding, transition, that sort of thing. Do some of these seasonal herbs that we’ve talked about align with certain emotions or life seasons as well?

Suzanne Tabert:
Right. So we can review that Tulsi helps us when we’re feeling so overwhelmed that we may be in shock or we may be just completely stuck. Hawthorne holds on to you while you’re moving through these hard times and takes the edge off so that you can think. Because when we’re so stressed out, our brain literally, our thought process shuts down and it’s hard to make decisions then. And so somebody just had surgery and the doctors are saying, “We got to make decisions.” And you’re like, “Ah.” Hawthorne will help you to say, “Okay, all right, now I can think. ” The adaptogenics, you mentioned the mushrooms like Rishi mushrooms, the lion’s mane, any of the ganaderma mushrooms and chaga helps to build, build, build, helps us to have more resilience so that these transition times or these hard times, we’re able to cope with it a lot better.
The adaptogenic herbs really help us to say, “We can do this. We’re strong. We can do this. It’s going to be okay. We may feel weak for a period, but emotionally we’re going to be just fine.”

Anna Sakawsky:
Well, and is that where, would you say, say telsea, for example, something that’s in season in the summer and can support us through that season, but it’s a good idea to maybe harvest and preserve some because we may need that sort of support at other times of year too. Maybe we’re in a season of life that doesn’t necessarily match the season of the year, but we need to prioritize that first, right?

Suzanne Tabert:
Exactly. So I have tulsi tincture on my kitchen counter and I’ve got dry tulsi leaves by my stove. And even just today, I threw some tulsi leaves in just to calm down because who knows what I’m going to say on these podcasts. I want to make sure I don’t say something weird or weirder. So this is a season, being on a podcast can be a little stressful, so I’m doing what I can. And is Tulsi growing now? No. Have I preserved it so that I can use it for this time? Absolutely, you betcha.

Anna Sakawsky:
Yeah, for sure. But it does seem like some of the energetics of the herbs seem to match the seasons that they grow in or that they’re in season at that time. A lot of the things that we see growing in the spring naturally help us to kind of cleanse and renew and reset our foundation. And then the things that tend to be in season in the summer are things that are more calming for the system when we’re in a season of chaos and stress and that sort of thing. And then again, the things that are in season in the fall or the things that more root us and ground us and bring us back to ourselves. And then again, in the winter, it’s more stuff that can kind of support our mood and get us through that kind of last of the dark season before spring renews itself again.
So I just think that that’s really interesting. And to be looking first to what’s growing in season around us, but also working on building our own little apothecary and preserving things so that we have it to use whenever we are in a time of need. So for somebody who is new to herbalism too, are there any important safety considerations or anything like that to be aware of before somebody dives into all this?

Suzanne Tabert:
Yeah. If you’re going to be doing foraging on your own, make sure that you’re 110% positive of the identification. Like I said at the beginning of the podcast, I just wrote a book, The Foragers Apothecary, and my editor just told me today it’s locked, so I can’t make any more changes and it’s going to go into production. And I think it’s going to be, don’t quote me, spring of 2027 when it’s out. And for every monograph that I do, I have at least one to three lookalikes. Some are toxic, some may be medicinal, but they could be easily misconstrued or misidentified. So we got to make sure if you’re not sure about the identification, don’t harvest. And here’s my plant, my plants of the Pacific Northwest coast, this thing has seen some movies. I mean, I don’t even have the whole thing anymore. It’s been around for a long time.
And so I would say get yourself a really good field guide. So a good field guide has pictures.
It sure it may have a few drawings, but the pictures are what’s ultimately the most important because an artist’s rendition of a plant, however accurate they want it to be, may not be accurate enough to make that positive ID. So take some classes, go out with reputable foragers and herbalists who know their craft really well. My website, cedarmountainherbs.com, I have so much information on it. It’s a huge website and it has articles that are free. I have a Material Medica subscription four times a month. You get more information about a plant. So every month you get a new plant and then at the end you get like this burst of 20 plants just because I couldn’t stop. I’ve got articles anywhere from how to make a tincture with alcohol or without alcohol to how to make it through menopause. I got a lot of experience with that.
It’s not on the website yet right as we’re talking, but I’m going to have a full day herb harvest in the Seattle area. I’m going to have a three-day herb camp in September here in Sandpoint, Idaho, my apprenticeship programs. If you’re not in this area, although I have a gal that moved from Hawaii just to take my apprenticeship program this year, and that’s happened to me so many times because I’ve been doing this for 157 years, but if you’re in your … Can you tell? But in your area, find out who has been doing this long enough. And social media can pretend a person can pretend that they’ve been doing it for a long time because they have pretty pictures, but word of mouth is key. Ask around who are the people, who are the foragers, who are the herbalists who have been at it for a long time and have the skills.
And those are the people that you move to and learn from.

Anna Sakawsky:
Yeah, that’s good advice too, especially coming back to the idea of that bioregionalism and finding somebody in your area and getting to know the actual plants in your area. Where are some places that people might be able to find some of these herbs? If they don’t maybe want to forage them, I mean, I’m thinking either seeds for herbs that they can grow so that they’re sure of what they’re actually growing and then can harvest from there. Or do you have a resource? Where’s your go- to for dried herbs and that sort of thing?

Suzanne Tabert:
Ooh, Mountain Rose Herbs is my favorite, all time favorite place to get dried herbs. What I like about them is their commitment to quality and their commitment to local. I’m a writer for their blog. So if you go on mountainroseerbs.com and then go on the blog and put in my name, Suzanne Tabert, you can find all of my blog posts that I wrote. What I like about them, they’re very generous. They’re generous to the community. They have a storefront, they have an online present presence. They put out the free herbalism project every year. And then for seeds, I like strictly medicinal seeds. You can get seeds and starts for them. Rico Czech is the guy who owns that. And gosh, he goes way, way back. So he knows his stuff really well. His prices are a little brosy, but the quality is just absolutely amazing.
And you know what you’re getting is the plant that you’re looking for, right? Yeah. Oh, and that leads me to say, make sure you know the botanical name of the plant, because there could be many different plants that are called self-heal, for instance. And if you want prunella vulgaris, make sure you’re looking up prunella vulgaris. And how do you find the botanical name? Ask Uncle Google. He’ll tell you.

Anna Sakawsky:
Well, that’s awesome. Well, thank you so much. I mean, if there’s any one takeaway that you would like to leave our listeners with today, just one principle about seasonal herbalism and wellness, what would you want that to be?

Suzanne Tabert:
Get out there every season and take in the vibe and the energy of that season. Open up your eyes to the bees, see who they’re pollinating, open up your eyes to that big green blur and start to learn the plants individually, and then open up your ears to the beauty of the seasons and the smell of the seasons, right? In North Idaho and the summer, the air smells like pine, that sweet smell of pine that I just so yearn to. And we can’t get that if we’re not outside. So go outside and play, my friends. You’re going to be benefited in so many ways.

Anna Sakawsky:
Well, there’s nothing like getting your hands in the dirt, actually learning about these plants up close, but also just getting out there. I mean, we didn’t really dive into other lifestyle habits and things like that to bring in other than obviously diet being a really important component, but just things like getting outdoors, getting fresh air, getting sunshine, literally touching the soil is healthy for you. There’s microbes in the soil and we’re grounding and we’re doing all these things. So just to say that herbs are just one component of this and of living a holistically healthy life. And of course, spring is a great time to get out there and start getting back into nature and getting more in tune with all the rhythms of the seasons and everything like that, because we’re not going to be stuck indoors pretty soon here.
Awesome. Well, Suzanne, thank you so much for being here for sharing your wisdom today and helping us think kind of more intentionally just about how we can work with the plants that are around us in each season, not just in spring, but throughout the entire year. For those of you listening, Suzanne again goes even deeper into using herbs to refresh and renew the body in her article on Spring Cleansing, which is in the latest issue of Homestead Living Magazine. If you are already a subscriber, you should have received the March, April 2026 issue already. So make sure to set some time aside to read through that. There’s a lot of great information in there. Suzanne’s article being one of them, we also have articles actually on some of the other things that we talked about today, like reducing inflammation in the body and just eating seasonally to support ourselves through the spring season and beyond.
And of course, if you are not yet subscribed, we would love to have you join our community. Each issue is packed with seasonal wisdom to support you both on the homestead as well as in your home and body so you can learn more and start your annual subscription at homesteadliving.com/subscribe. And as always, we will have all of the links that we mentioned on this episode, including links to Suzanne’s website and to all of her resources. You’ve got, I know, courses and eBooks and all sorts of things that can help people whether they’re beginning on their herbal journey or they’re kind of ready to take the next step. So we will include all of that in the show notes below. And finally, just a reminder that if you enjoy today’s conversation, be sure to hit subscribe, leave a review, maybe even share this episode with a friend.
It truly helps us to grow and to reach more people who are striving to live healthier, more sustainable lives, which is at the heart of everything we do here at Homestead Living. So again, thank you so much, Suzanne, for being here. And until next- Thanks

Suzanne Tabert:
So much. Appreciate It.

Anna Sakawsky:
Thank you. And until next time, keep learning, keep growing. We’ll see you all next time on The Coop.

Don Tipping:

I’m sorry. Never get seed at the hardware store where they’re a dollar a packet. Why would you do that? Why would you hobble yourself right from the start? Think how long that seed sat in some UPS truck in the sun, not in an optimal situation versus people that are treating it more like, I don’t know, the handmade goat cheese at your farmer’s market where the person loves their goats and the kids gave them names. That’s a very different thing than the industrial model. Why not grow some nice transplants? And that’s why I love transplants because I can prepare my beds, till them right before I plant, get it all just how I like it, and then put transplants in at the exact spacing. There’s no weeds. And then my plants have that six to eight week jumpstart on all the weeds.

Anna Sakawsky:

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You head to azurestandard.com right now to get started. Again, that’s azurestandard.com. Well, hello everyone and welcome to episode 15 of The Coop. I’m your host, Anna Sokowski, editor-in-chief of Homestead Living Magazine. And today I am joined by Dawn Tipping, owner of Siskiyou Seeds to talk all about seed starting. So Dawn is an established permaculture leader, organic farmer, writer, and community activist based in Southwest Oregon. He’s been farming and offering hands-on practical workshops at Seven Seeds Farm since 1997. And in 2009, he founded Siskiyou Seeds, a bioregional organic seed company that grows and stewards a collection of over 700 open pollinated flour, vegetable, and herb varieties, with new ones being bred and distributed nationally. Dawn is active in the seed stewardship movement and teaches regionally on seed saving through the Seed Academy, the Student Organic Seed Symposium, various seed schools, and numerous conferences. He currently serves on the board of a new nonprofit called Seeds of Light, which is developing educational programs for gap year students and workshops aimed at growing humans through their head, heart, and hands.

Dawn is also a contributor to Homestead Living Magazine. You can catch his latest article on the importance of sourcing seeds locally in the January, February issue of Homestead Living Magazine. And I’m so glad to have Dawn on the show today to talk all about seed selecting, sourcing, and starting because it is the season. As we head into spring, now is the time to start planning and soon we will be planting our gardens out. So Dawn, welcome to the show.

Don Tipping:

Thanks so much. I’m happy to share some time with you.

Anna Sakawsky:

Awesome. Well, I’m really excited to pick your brain today because I have now been gardening for about 10 or 11 years. But A, I remember when I first started out, I had no idea what I was doing and you hear kind of conflicting things sometimes or you kind of almost get analysis paralysis. And I remember the first year I just didn’t even know where to start. And even now, 10 years later, there’s something new that I’m learning all the time. And I think that it’s probably safe to assume that a lot of our listeners and readers of the magazine, a lot of them probably maybe do some gardening in some capacity, although we do have people who are brand new to homesteading, maybe have never gardened before. And then there are others. I hear this a lot from people that there’s kind of an intimidation factor when it comes to starting seeds or maybe it’s been because of frustration because they’ve tried starting seeds in the past and they’ve had challenges or their seedlings have died or whatever.

So a lot of people will just kind of revert to purchasing transplants from the nursery and growing a garden that way. So before we get into kind of the nitty-gritty of how to select, source, start seeds, what would you say are the benefits to starting plants from seed versus just going and purchasing transplants or starts from the store?

Don Tipping:

Yeah. Well, that’s a great setup and inquiry. And I think it’s important to consider that any life form, so in this instance we’re talking about plants, wants to begin growing and then grow at a steady trajectory up without encountering limits, constraints, undue stresses, or grow in a bubble and then be exposed to the cold, hard world. And so a lot of new gardeners will say, “Oh, I don’t have the situation set up for myself to start things from seed, whether it’s the trays or the ability of mixing soil or just the time.” So they’ll buy starts at a garden center or the farmer’s market or something like this. However, when you put yourself in the mind of someone selling vegetable starts or flour starts, and you’re going to want them to be big and dark green and leafy, and these are people that know how to grow things, which means that oftentimes, and I think almost exclusively, they’re fertilizing them excessively so that they look good, but it’s all show and no go.

So when you put them into your home garden soil, and especially think for a new gardener, maybe their soil isn’t quite at the organic matter or tilth or soil preparation that you may be able to achieve when you’re more experienced. So you put this new vegetable start that’s grown by an expert into a more challenging environment and then it gets stressed out. And two, like I talked about wanting to start at one point and grow on a smooth trajectory, you’ve just interrupted that. So when you start your own seeds, you’re just more in control of all the dials, of all the parameters of the light, the timing, the soil, the proper temperature, and all of this to set yourself up for success. And I think that that’s really important. It’s not all that difficult. I’ve made a few YouTube videos of how to make potting soil, our recipe of homemade potting soil and how we start various seeds.

Different species want different approaches taken to them, but it is one of the crucial parts. And if you think, if you look on the broad scale, planting things from seed was the hallmark of agriculture because nobody had greenhouses, there was no garden centers or that kind of thing. So for the great arc of thousands of years of human beings doing agriculture and gardening, they were planting right into the soil. So I think that it’s really implicit to start there. And like we learned to play the piano by learning how to play chopsticks before you learn the notes, but you learn that feeling of making sound on the keyboard. So I encourage everybody to go that way. See, buying starts as the backup plan and say in case yours fail, but don’t start there because it’s just going to set you up for a bit of a disappointment because you put these beautiful, big, leafy, dark green starts in, and then they just kind of sit there or maybe get frosted, attacked by disease, pests, or maybe too much sunlight because they were being grown under shade cloth, which is very common and in an environment where there was no wind.

So there’s a lot there, but start off with that.

Anna Sakawsky:

Well, that makes a lot of sense. And we’re going to get into that and talk a little bit about direct sewing seeds versus starting them indoors and which seeds prefer what and why. But again, before we kind of get into the actual seeds starting, before anybody even goes and purchases their seeds, what sort of information should they have or what sort of things should they be considering, like things like gardening zones, frost dates, stuff like that, what should you know before you even decide what seeds to select?

Don Tipping:

Yeah, that’s good question. And I typically encourage people to get to know your gardening neighbors is the best source of local wisdom, much more so than a USDA zone, because all that tells you the hardiness zone is how cold does it get in the winter. But we’re generally gardening during the time of year where it’s not winter and it’s not frost. So locally through garden clubs or your neighbors who are already experienced gardeners, you can find out when is the last spring frost date. That’s crucial information as is knowing when typically frost comes in the fall, but even more important is the last frost date in the spring. For us, it’s usually around Memorial Day, the end of May. So that’s the demarcation point wherein you have to wait to plant the cold, sensitive, like frost sensitive crops that include all the summer vegetables of tomatoes, beans, corn, peppers, squash, cucumbers, melons, that kind of thing.

The brassicas, lettuces, other greens, onions, leeks, peas, they can handle some light frost. So for us, we’re usually putting things like that, either direct seeding or transplanting in April in Western Oregon, but it’s going to vary. So you need to find out what the local wisdom is. And typically, there’s a gardener club or some kind of resource that you’ll be able to find, and it’s all very case by case to your location.

Anna Sakawsky:

Yeah, it’s so true because even our area, so I’ve got probably a similar climate to yours because I’m on Vancouver Island. So West Coast, same thing, same kind of idea, Memorial Day, that kind of time for us, it’s like Mother’s Day weekend is usually the weekend I typically, if weather is average, I can plant out things like my tomato starts and that sort of thing. So again, those warmer weather crops, but it varies even within our community, depending on where you are. Our microclimate is different because we’re at the top of a hill. So we get a little bit colder winters. We get a little bit hotter, a degree or two Celsius, but hotter in the summer than down lower. So it’s taken us a while to get to know our specific little micro climate here as well and when to plant everything out. And so I think there’s just a lot of validity to that is you can’t just necessarily go with what your gardening zone says or whatever you really need to get to know and have a feel for your particular microclimate.

Don Tipping:

Exactly.

Anna Sakawsky:

Okay. So when it comes to actually sourcing seeds, you actually wrote an article for the magazine this month on the importance of sourcing locally. So we’ll kind of talk about that, but what are just in general, what are some of the best places for home gardeners to source seeds? Are there certain companies? Should you always be looking for something local? Are there any sources that maybe you should avoid or that are red flags?

Don Tipping:

Yeah. Well, I think for one, obviously I have my own biases and insights because I have a seed company, but I’ve also been a commercial seed grower growing seed for many other companies. For instance, I’ve grown seed for high mowing seeds, Johnny’s, Fedco. All of those are in the Northeast. So let’s say you live in the Northeast of this country and you imagine, “Oh, I’m going to support my local seed companies.” The reality is, is like those three that are all excellent companies that really do a great job are sourcing nationwide and globally oftentimes and from more ideal seed growing regions like the Pacific Northwest. So just because a seed company is in a certain area doesn’t mean they’re obtaining the seeds locally. There is a different category of small farm-based seed companies like my own and others like up where you are, there’s saltwater seeds, BC ecoseeds, co-op, there’s uprising seeds is in Bellingham, Washington.

And we’re hoping to develop a map so people can find this out. But once again, getting to know your neighborhood gardeners and asking them where they get their seeds is really helpful because it takes many iterations. And you think about, like I’ve been gardening for 35 years, so that may sound like a long time, but that’s only 35 times of an opportunity to source seed and all that. So being able, there’s an old saying like, “It’s good to learn from your own mistakes, but much easier to learn from the mistakes of others.” So becoming friends with other gardeners. Another good opportunity if it exists where you are is a seed swap because that’s a way to meet other gardeners and then you’re getting seed that local gardeners have grown and then they can share their experience about that. I wanted to give mention to there’s days to maturity, and this kind of overlaps our last question in this one too.

So when you look at a seed packet, let’s say a lettuce, it may say 55 days to maturity. That doesn’t mean that you put that seed in the ground and that 55 days you have a head of lettuce, but it all depends on temperature, wind, pest, disease, how much sun, how much rain. So days to maturity can be really confusing and that’s why your local lore is more valuable and keeping a garden journal too. So one myth about seeds, and one of my mentors had kind of a tongue-in-cheek joke about it. He said that most seed companies are just paper companies. They print catalogs and packets and just need a little bit of floor sweepings to put in it because most gardeners will blame themselves for a failure or lackluster performance rather than the seed. Whereas a seed company like Johnny’s or high mowing, they can’t afford to be distributing poor quality seeds because farmers know the difference.

They know like, “Hey, I planted carrot seeds here and

They just didn’t work out. ” Because there’s so many variables. So keeping a journal and write your seed source in there, write what seed you started with. And a good way to learn about it is obtain seed from a few different sources and grow them side by side. And then you’ll learn firsthand what works for you and your site because there are so many variables and it’s important not to blame yourself, but the more data you have throughout the growing season, like maybe an observation is it was rainy and cool for a week before I put my seeds in the ground, the sun finally came out. Let’s say you’re planting sweet corn. Well, the soil’s still going to be cold and damp. So even though sun came out, doesn’t mean like everything warms up all of a sudden. So keeping that garden journal will really help you understand what went well and what could have been improved.

Anna Sakawsky:

Yeah, that’s a great tip. I need to get better at that. I am not a good garden journal keeper. I usually start out like when I start my onion seeds, which are usually the first things that I start around now, January, early February, and I’m really diligent about keeping track of everything and then later on in the season it all kind of falls apart. I have started just taking photos at least of the garden. So at least I know where things were planted so that I can do things like crop rotation and that sort of thing. But definitely garden journaling is a good tip and something I need to get better at. I love also the tip of like looking to see if there’s local seed swaps, that sort of thing. We have, in our community, we have something in the spring called Seed Saturday.

So there’s a Saturday in March, early March, usually where you can go down to one of the community centers here and it’s a big seed swap and seed purchasing event, but all these local seed producers are there and it’s everybody from like some of the bigger seed companies, bigger local seed companies that actually sell in the garden stores and that sort of thing to just like just people swapping seeds, just everyday gardeners. So that’s been a really cool resource. And if you don’t have that in your community, another thing that I have found here and that I’ve heard that a lot of people have in their communities is like a seed library. So we have one of those at our public library in the spring. They just have a place where if you have saved seed from your garden, you can drop some off if you’ve got extra and if you want to pick some up, you can pick it up.

And that’s a great way to get started for free as well. So yeah, love the idea of kind of starting locally. I’m just curious in your opinion too, what does local mean? How local should you be looking or what’s the radius that you want to stick within if possible?

Don Tipping:

My view about local has changed over the years, whereas I used to see it much like local food where you wanted to get it as local as possible from local farmers because of a whole variety of reasons that everybody probably already knows. However, with seeds, they’re plants and they imprint more on a climate analog. So the idea of bioregionally adapted is more important. So like you mentioned, you lived up there on Vancouver Island, which is actually more similar to my climate here than if I were to go east four or five hours from my location on the east side of the Cascades where it’s more a high desert climate. So it’s not so much about the radius, it’s more about what kind of springs do you have? Like here we have cool wet springs that vacillate from rainy and cool to sunny and nice. In the summer, it can get really hot, but nights are still cool because we’re in the mountains.

Our winters are fairly moderate because we’re close enough to the ocean to have a bit of that maritime climate thing. And so from years of doing research and development on my farm, I’ve learned that seeds that were grown in Western Colorado actually do better on my farm than seeds that were grown in the Upper Pacific Northwest where it never really gets hot because we can get into the upper 90 degrees or for those that use Celsius, about 40 degrees Celsius in the summer, whereas around the Puget Town, it never gets that hot. So I think that’s a valuable thing to understand over time. And that’s back to the keeping a garden journal, getting to know your gardening neighbors. And like we mentioned before, seed swaps and seed libraries are great repositories for local seed. And unfortunately, the big seed companies, and I’m not going to name names, but the really big ones source like a couple that I know of, they source up to 70% of their seeds from China.

There’s no requirement to disclose the country of origin for that. So obviously that’s the other side of the planet, but they’ll never tell you. And it’s really not doing gardeners any service because they’re trying in all their earnestness to do a good job growing from seed. However, if those seeds, seeds have memory and they get used to not only the location and climate, but also the growing techniques. So if perhaps the seed you’re planting was grown in a conventional environment with lots of nitrogen, chemical fertilizer, insecticides, fungicides, that kind of thing, or maybe it was even grown in an indoor environment, then those seeds over time, they won’t know what to do about the wind or cucumber beetles or any of the challenges that maybe fall a typical garden.

Anna Sakawsky:

Yeah, that’s a really interesting point too. I didn’t even think about that, but just even like the local pests and that sort of thing that you might have sourcing locally, hopefully you’ll get varieties that are more adapted, not just to your climate and your conditions, but to pests and things like that. Also, just thinking about some seeds that we sourced at one of these seedy Saturday conventions a number of years ago now, we got an heirloom type of seed that I have not seen anywhere else. So it’s like a local heirloom variety of tomato. It’s technically a paste tomato, but it kind of doubles as a slicer. It’s a beautiful … It’s perfect, right? And because it’s a local heirloom, it’s really adapted to our climate. It’s always our best performer every year. So that’s just another reason why sourcing locally, you might end up getting just varieties that you’re not going to necessarily find sourcing from those larger seed companies and ones that are obviously more adapted to your local region.

Now, that being said, regardless of where you’re sourcing them from, the next kind of step to that is choosing the actual varieties, right? Because there are lots of different … I mean, it’s easy enough to go, okay, I want to grow some carrots, I want to grow some tomatoes and some broccoli, some lettuce, whatever, but then there’s a million different varieties of each one of those. So how does somebody that’s maybe just starting out know what varieties to choose?

Don Tipping:

Good question. And it can be bewildering because there are literally thousands of varieties out there. And sometimes too, I’ve, in all the years I’ve been gardening, notice sometimes multiple names for what is actually the same variety because it’s like a game of telephone that things change over time or people rename them or they lose the plant marker and just give it a name. So that’s where your local farm-based seed companies are useful. Here at Siskiyou Seeds, I have a general rule of we don’t sell it if we can’t grow it. So like okra, I’ve never really been all that successful growing okra. We’re just not in the right climate. Our nights are too cool. We do have one dwarf short season variety, but if you want okra and you’re really into it, go get seed from like Southern exposure seeds or so true seeds or true love seeds, one of those down there in the Southeast where they really know their okra.

So whereas the plants that I have an affinity for, we have way more varieties for because I just care about them and I know they grow well in our area, whether that’s different varieties of corn or zinnas or lettuces. So variety selection, I would say, here’s my advice, just gamble and try some new things to catch your eye because there’s always new things coming out. I grew a few dozen new varieties of tomatoes that I’ve never heard of before this year, just because they’re new, so there wasn’t an established track record, yet there are those old favorites that all grow every year just because, and I know that they work in my area. So those are the kind of things you can find out through local garden clubs, seed libraries, food swaps, an experienced gardening neighbor. And in permaculture, there’s a little saying, and I think this axiom applies here, and it just goes simply like this.

Start with natives, then proven exotics second, and then unproven exotics last.

Anna Sakawsky:

Right.

Don Tipping:

So don’t plan your whole canning approach on new varieties that you’ve never grown before.

Anna Sakawsky:

Yeah. I like that advice. And it’s funny that you bring up okra because I got some seeds actually given to me by, I guess, a mid-size seed company now, but based in the US and based a little bit more to the south. And there was a whole bunch of different types of plants and varieties in there, and one was a type of okra. And I thought, oh, I’m just going to give it a go. And I think I got two okras per plant, but I only grew three plants. I thought I wanted to grow a few just so that if one was just a bad plant or I could test a few, but I didn’t want to dedicate a whole garden bed to them or anything because if they didn’t work out, and even stuff that is more local, you’re right. If it’s not a proven thing that you know you’re going to do really well with, so that’s kind of how we have developed our approach to gardening over the years too, is to choose the things that we know are proven winners.

And then we usually try one or two new varieties every year. And sometimes we do get something else that we’re like, “Hey, I really love that. I think it’s important to try new things too, but we have some good old standbys now that’s what takes up most of our garden space.” And most of it is kind of locally sourced, although you get surprised sometimes too. Actually, Melissa K. Norris, who you know as well, she sent me some of her family’s heirloom green bean, which she does grow obviously in the Pacific Northwest, but it’s originally from, I think, North Carolina, Tarheel green beans. And they grow great for us and we love them. And that’s kind of a standby every year too. So all that to say, it’s worth it to try new things, but I like that your idea of starting locally and with what’s proven in your area first and then branching out from there.

Now, what about seed packets? If somebody is going to the garden center and they’re looking at different information on the seed packets and trying to choose the right seeds for them, first off, what kind of information can you typically find on a seed packet and how can that inform your decision?

Don Tipping:

Yeah. Well, it all depends because everybody puts different amounts of information on seed packets. And nowadays too, in our modern digitally interconnected world, a QR code may bring you to a website that provides infinite information about things. But in general, you’re looking for … Species would be the botanical description for lettuce or corn or tomatoes, and then the variety. So you want clear information there. If you’re interested in saving seed, having the Latin name is useful, but you can look that up because some things like squash, for instance, most gardeners grow varieties from three different species, cucurbita pipo, which is your zucchinis and pumpkins and delicata, cucarbita maxima, which is your buttercups and your kabocha squash and cucurbita mashada, which is your butter nut squash. You can grow those all next to each other and they won’t cross pollinate because they’re in different species. Plants cross within species, but very rarely outside of species lines.

So that’s helpful information. Dase to maturity I think is only useful in terms of comparing one variety against another. So let’s say you want to ensure that you have fresh sweet corn for as long of the season as possible. Plant a 70-day variety, an 80-day variety, and a 90-day variety, or successionally plant. So some of that information is useful.

And a lot of the general information of plant this deep, this far apart, that you can obtain that information from other sources. And as a general rule of thumb, I always say plant a seed twice as deep as it is long. The spacing really depends on the fertility of your soil. So just following the information on the packet may or may not lead you to success. So I think that’s just a caveat. I wanted to kind of back up on the last point, and this is where one of my mentors, he introduced me to the term workhorse varieties. And when we used to do truck farming for farmer’s markets, we called it box fillers. Varieties we just do, they’re dependable, they can fill boxes versus primadonas. And unfortunately in the seed trade, it’s the perfect setup for the primadonas. Think of the covers of the seed catalog.

It’s always new or just released. It’s something pretty that catches our eye or the name conjures our imagination, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s tried and true. And so one of the mentors of this mentor that taught me that term, John Navasio, who got a PhD in plant breeding at University of Wisconsin, but he learned from Dr. Henry Munger, who was a plant breeder at Cornell. And Henry Munger developed a lot of the market more cucumbers and other vine crops like that. And this was in the era before insecticides. And so what he would do is seed thousands of seedlings and they need to have his grad students literally taste the lead So the cucumbers for the ones that weren’t bitter because the cucumber beetles are attracted to the bitter flavor. And this is the kind of work that true seedsmen or seeds women of old did before modern seed companies existed.

So every agrarian community had some people that they just knew the varieties and the seeds and they worked on that because we didn’t have the fallback of grocery stores, various crop supports, sprays, row covers, that kind of stuff. And the resiliency of the crop needed to happen through the genetics. And that’s again, I’m just going to bring you back to implore people, find your local seed company, find the people doing this work because it’s vital and it’s not just supporting local. The difference, and sorry if I’m offending anyone, between locally produced soap and soap from somewhere else, it might be very small. But the genetics inside locally produce seed for your area versus seed produced somewhere else, it can be a world of difference. And that’s where we want these workhorse varieties that hopefully over time will be like a pop song on the radio that everybody knows like, oh, you grow crimson sprinter tomatoes or this, that or the other thing you just know or costato romanesco zucchini are the best tasting ones, which they are.

And then you don’t even have to think twice. And so then this time of year when you’re thinking about sourcing seed, instead of being overwhelmed with all the diversity and all the information on the packets and all that, you’ve learned like, I know it’s easy to get distracted, but like there’s a bass player who had a great little piece of advice. Don’t drop the groove to play a note. You got to hold the groove because that’s why we’re growing gardens is for productivity and abundance. Some of it’s beauty and just the therapy of being in our garden, but at the end of the day, wouldn’t it be nice if it was productive and reliable as well? And that’s where the workhorse varieties really come through. And like at our seed companies, I have a couple collections I call Farmer Gone’s favorites. And I’m like, well, if you don’t know where to start, here, let me help you out.

I know these ones may seem really good, but raising my kids, lemon cucumbers are the jam. They’ll just eat them as snacks. There’s stuff like that where it’s like, take my advice, this works.

Anna Sakawsky:

Right. Now, okay. So those kind of tried and true ones, are those typically like the heirloom seeds, which almost came first? I feel like a lot of them are probably heirlooms because those are the ones that people tend to save because they have good traits. But then also those traits are really good because people have saved them and selected them and bred them over years. And so they have developed these really great traits as well. So is that something that people should be looking for? We hear about this a lot like heirloom, right? Everybody wants to grow an heirloom garden. Is that a feature that people should be looking for when they’re selecting their seeds that it’s an heirloom strain?

Don Tipping:

Yeah. I’m really glad you brought that up. And there’s a lot of confusion in terms sometimes. So just to start off with the term, heirloom means the air of the loom and it comes from European weaving guilds. So if you, let’s say your parents were weavers, you would become the heir of the loom. That would also include who has the sheep? What are the weaving patterns? Who’s going to buy the cloth? The whole system. So again, like an heirloom tomato like I have Polish and Hungarian heritage that from there was also part of a recipe and a whole culinary thing and maybe a traditional food. So right now heirloom is a very buzz marketing term that it’s like theoretically better. Whereas I’ve bred varieties I call the heirlooms of tomorrow because maybe there weren’t heirlooms in our area of Oregon because agriculture’s kind of new.

So I’ll cross pollinate a number of good ones together and then select so I get a combination of the best qualities, kind of like animal breeding in a way. So an unfortunate thing about heirlooms is with the advent of modern F1 proprietary hybrids that would generally start in the 1950s and it was just accelerated. There’s now a conception among some people that hybrids are better, but really that’s where all the focus of plant breeding went is into these because people have a belief you can’t save seed from hybrids, which is wrong. You totally can. So the effort of maintaining the heirlooms went away. So a Detroit dark red beet that was from seed from the year 1900, if you go back to the year 1900, that’s a way better beet than if you were to buy seed of the same exact variety today because the effort into selection and maintenance isn’t there because it’s difficult to recoup the investment of time that would go into that.

Whereas if you look through a seed catalog, I’ll just use Johnny’s for example, and they produce a lot of excellent seed, source excellent seed. I’m not trying to pick on them at all. When you look at the open pollinative variety, so all heirlooms are open pollinated, meaning that if you let them just grow and flour, they will cross pollinate and grow true to type from seed, as long as they don’t cross with other varieties in the same species. I try not to make this too confusing.

So anyhow, back to that idea, like with the hybrids, there’s a lot more effort that’s required in maintaining those and they’re sold by the seed count, whereas the open pollinated ones are sold by the graham or the ounce or the pound. And so there’s this weird obfuscation that is trying to trick people from comparing the price per seed. If you look at what a hybrid cucumber or hybrid melon seed costs, they can cost up to like 25 cents a seed. They’re really expensive because it’s a lot of effort to produce that seed. And increasingly, the big seed companies like Bejho, Vitalis, and Zazada, these ones you never even hear of because you can’t go buy seed from them. They only sell to big distributors. They have to put a lot of effort into this and it’s a lot of like laboratory techniques and they need a way to recover their investment.

And so they’re producing primadanas for the industry. So I know it gets a little confusing between these terms, but heirloom isn’t always better. What you need are well-maintained open pollinated heirlooms. So like for us, let’s say we grow Cherokee purple tomato, which is a self-pollinated crop. Let’s say I’ve got a hundred foot row of them and I’ve planted one every 18 inches, so maybe there’s 80 plants in that row. If I notice one where the leaves just don’t look good, the plant, like it’s just not vigorous, I’ll literally go out there and rip that plant up and throw it in the compost. I don’t want any seed from it. Or let’s say a lettuce like a bronze arrow or crisp men or something. If when it’s making seed, I notice that it gets a disease and the plant dies, I’ll rip that plant up. Even though it managed to make seed, I won’t save any seed from that because you don’t want seed from a plant that got diseased.

And this is the work that a seedsman or a seeds woman does, is the close observation. But imagine some big industrial field that’s producing container loads for all of seed for the global market. There’s nobody walking the row looking for the disease plants. I’m sorry. It’s just the industrial model. So our choices have consequences. And when you think about a $5 packet of seed, that’s a pretty cheap price. We’d go back to a tomato or a lettuce. How many tomatoes or lettuce can grow from that $5 packet? A lot. So spending a little bit more money at that stage. And one of my mentors, Larry Middleton, who worked friends is odd in one of the big Dutch seed companies, he reflected that in Europe, farmers were very willing to spend more money on quality seed because they knew that starting with quality, it results in a better result.

Just like let’s say you’re playing music. If you’re playing a dime store guitar, it’s hard to make it beautiful versus a well-made instrument. Whereas in America, people tend to spend their money, this is his observation from many decades in the seed trade, on fertilizer, the tractor, and then they think about seed as an afterthought, which is why … I’m sorry, never get seed at the hardware store where they’re a dollar a packet. Why? Why would you do that? Why would you hobble yourself right from the start? Think how long that seed sat in some UPS truck in the sun, not in an optimal situation versus people that are treating it more like, I don’t know, the handmade goat cheese at your farmer’s market where the person loves their goats and the kids gave them names. That’s a very different thing than the industrial model. And our thoughts and our actions have consequences.

And thankfully we’re seeing this renaissance where people want to participate in things that are consistent with the rest of their value set. So if the farmer … And I think with an heirloom, to me, an heirloom isn’t an heirloom unless it has a seed story. We’re limited by the amount of word space on our packets because we’re still low tech. We use Avery labels that we stick on there by hand. But on our website, I’m constantly updating it as I learn new stories oftentimes from older people about a variety like Cherokee Purple. That was actually some homesteader that moved to living near Cherokee indigenous people. It’s not a traditional crop of the Cherokee. Tomatoes are from the Oaxacan region of Mexico, but he really appreciated what he learned about living off the land from his Cherokee neighbors. So when he developed Cherokee Purple, he named it after the tribe.

And so we get all these orders from like Oklahoma from what I presume are indigenous people from there who are wanting to reclaim their heritage. But I think it’s interesting the seed story, this game of telephone that’s beautiful in a way, and that it includes many people, many histories and lineages along the way. And that’s what we’re trying to rebuild with our broken food systems by having to have story and have heart and soul in it.

Anna Sakawsky:

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Because there is a distinction, like a timeline, isn’t there, for how long something needs to be saved for, how many generations it needs to be saved for something to become an official heirloom?

Don Tipping:

Yeah. There’s no hard and fast line. It was like in the late 1950s is when hybrid sweet corn really began to and field corn make inroads into agriculture. So I’ve heard 1959 being kind of the threshold, but I think it’s more the idea of how many generations has this been around? Has it been something that’s in the cultural milu?

Anna Sakawsky:

Right. So passed down through a few generations. I’ve heard on average it’s like, I don’t know, three or four generations, that kind of

Don Tipping:

Thing. Yeah. That sounds good to me.

Anna Sakawsky:

Yeah. And because you mentioned, because I think there’s some overlap and I just want to make it clear for anybody who’s kind of new to this and who is maybe a little bit confused, that you said all heirlooms are open pollinated seeds, but not all open pollinated seeds are necessarily heirlooms, right? Exactly. So open pollinated seeds, just to kind of clarify, are seeds that pollinate naturally, right? Yeah. They pollinate either they’re self-pollinating or they pollinate by wind or by insects pollinating them, that sort of thing, right? And then they become heirlooms if they are specifically saved by the gardener or farmer and saved and replanted it over years and years to develop certain favorable traits. Correct. Now, just for anybody who might not understand what a hybrid is, because I’ve heard this from people before where there’s maybe confusion where they think it’s like a GMO seed, like something that’s actually bred in a lab.

What is a hybrid seed?

Don Tipping:

So I like to use the term proprietary F1 hybrids because hybridization is happening all the time in nature. Every time there’s sexual reproduction in plants or animals, there’s hybridization occurring. So even in an open pollinated seed lot, like if it’s a cross-pollinated crop where you have, let’s say 100 or 200 plants cross-pollinating, they’re all interhybridizing. You can’t avoid that. However, for a F1 hybrid, what they do is they maintain these inbred parent lines to achieve the uniformity and other desirable characteristics. And oftentimes those inbred lines are really wimpy and would never grow without immense human effort. But when you cross pollinate parent line A with parent line B, just to use generalized terms, then you get the F1 and you get what’s called heterosis, which we know that as hybrid vigor and the idea that hybrids have more vigor. Open pollinated varieties can be every bit as good, if not better, because you can save the seed than hybrids, but it’s very difficult to recover the cost of the effort to do that breeding work.

But our hybrids aren’t necessarily bad. I’ve definitely taken F1 hybrids and just grown a whole bunch of them and then let them cross and develop new varieties out of that. We have a variety of broccoli called Nutra Bud that came out of the F1 hybrid Pac-Man. And actually in laboratory testing, it showed to have the highest amino acid content of gluthalamine of any broccoli. So like win, but now here’s a variety that’s a stable open pollinated that you can grow. So yeah, there’s a lot there.

Anna Sakawsky:

Right, right. But if you’re kind of new to it, like you said, you can technically save seeds from hybrids, but they can be a little bit trickier because they’re bred from two different parent plants that are not necessarily the same open pollinated variety. And so from what I understand, you could have something that reverts back to one of the parent plants or the other or can be something totally new. It’s a lot more volatile. You’re not really necessarily sure what you’re going to get out of it. Is that correct?

Don Tipping:

True. Yeah. And there’s one of my mentors, Dr. Allen Kapler, he took early girl tomato, which was a very popular round red slicer that lots of truck farmers grew, and he grew it out. And by the F4, like fourth generation growing it out, he had a cherry tomato, aroma tomato, and a beefsteak, and ones that looked like the original. So all those were in the parent lines, just like we’re mutts of our parents and grandparents. So that’s useful. And generally, the big seed companies only produce hybrids for cross-pollinated crops, those that will outcross with others. Whereas the self-pollinated crops like lettuce, peas, beans, those ones don’t, you’ll never see an F1P, but they will put a utility patent or a Plant Variety Protection Act patent. And these are all intellectual property techniques that they sometimes tell you about in the seed catalog, sometimes not, to protect their investment.

So a popular example of that that’s available is the saladova lettuces. I’ll have a utility patent. You’re legally not allowed to save seed from those. Yeah.

Anna Sakawsky:

Right. Okay. And I remember that actually freaking me out when I first started gardening too, that there’s legalities around it. I think I feel, this is almost embarrassing, but I feel like when I started gardening, I was so worried about something growing a seed or saving a seed, and I had no clue what I was doing at that time. I didn’t know where they were coming from. I was one of those people that worried, maybe this is a GMO seed. You hear these horror stories about farmers saving seed, Monsanto seed, and then having huge lawsuits. And I feel like I actually emailed Monsanto and I was like, “Am I going to get in trouble if I do this? ” But I mean, on that note, if you’re new to gardening, you do. There’s all these questions, and I see this come up too as a question of GMO seeds.

Are these something that home gardeners ever have to worry about accidentally getting GMO seeds and planting them or having … I mean, well, we can talk about cross pollination maybe another time, maybe I’ll have it back and we can talk about seed saving, but is that something … Because I heard about a couple years ago now about a GMO seed that did come on the market that was available to home gardeners was like a purple tomato or something.

Don Tipping:

Exactly.

Anna Sakawsky:

So what’s the status on that right now?

Don Tipping:

GMOs are only for commodity crops. And if you look at the history, the first GMOs were all, they basically looked at what are the highest acreage planted crops in the country. And it was like GMO corn, GMO soy, GMO alfalfa, GMO cotton, sugar beets. These are commodity crops that people don’t eat because most of the corn and soy is just going to feed cows and pigs and feed lots. It’s not like your sweet corn. So this one, I can’t remember, it was like the Norwood purple tomato. Baker Creek totally put their foot in their mouth by … It was on their catalog cover. And it actually is a GMO tomato. So it’s not just purple on the outside, it’s purple on the inside. That was the first GMO vegetable crop for human consumption. Baker Creek to their credit did retract and withdrew that variety. And you can have GMOs cross into your variety.

Let’s say you live in the Midwest, but I don’t …

Anna Sakawsky:

With corn is what you’re saying, with corn crossfallen again. One

Don Tipping:

Of my mentors, Dr. Jean Navasio always said, nature finds a backdoor. GMOs aren’t Frankenstein. Nature’s been here for so long and it’s always going to find the path of least resistance. And none of the GMO laboratory techniques are actually beneficial to the plant. It’s all just for making money or control. So I wouldn’t lose sleep about it. Not that I’m for tampering with the genetics of our food, but I think a lot of it is this fear that people pass along just because it gets likes and clicks.

Anna Sakawsky:

Yeah, for sure. Or you see one crop come out a variety like that and you think, “Uh-oh, now the market’s being flooded with GMO seeds and now it’s something we need to be wary of. ” So no, but good to know that it’s not generally an issue. If you’re just gardening at home, right? Homesteading gardening, that GMO seeds are not really something that you need to worry about. I do want to talk a little bit about the actual seed starting process because you’ve mentioned a couple times days to maturity, which can be really confusing for people, and that has a lot to do with whether we are starting seeds indoors or whether we’re direct sewing them. So first off, just as far as starting seeds indoors, A, why? Why do we need to start seeds indoors at all? Why can’t we just plant them directly in the ground?

And B, how do we know which seeds to start indoors? If you’re a new gardener, how do you know which ones should be started indoors ahead of time and which ones should just go directly outside in the ground?

Don Tipping:

Yeah, great question. And for some crops, you can do it either way, either start inside or direct it seed in the ground. So we have a chart we have on our website, and I’m sure this is widely available information, but these of when should you plant these various crops, species by species from arugula to zucchini, and do you start it inside or outside? Oftentimes we’re starting things indoors to get a jumpstart on the season because you can maybe gain two months or more of the plant’s life cycle. And it’s important to consider that we grow a lot of subtropical plants in the north. So tomatoes, peppers, eggplants, corn, beans, squash, cucumbers, melons, all this. These are all subtropical plants in terms of where did they originate? So we’re trying to grow something that needs a long, warm growing season where we maybe just have a short growing season, whereas other crops maybe evolved over time at our same latitude.

So latitude makes a big difference, especially with plants that are photosensitive like onions. So I have a little rule of thumb just to create peace of mind for myself being a farmer is I don’t plant any seeds before February 1st, just to give myself all of January. So coming up soon, we’re about to plant onions, leeks. We’ll start the cool season crops like lettuces, mustards, arugula, broccoli, cabbage in the greenhouse. Those ones, also a question you need to answer is, does it need warmth to germinate? So those like subtropical plants that I mentioned earlier, like tomatoes and corn and stuff, they need warmth to germinate, otherwise the seed will just rot. So if you are serious about starting from seed, it’s totally worth investing in a heat mat. They’re fairly inexpensive for the advantage they give you. And it’s a simple thing that plugs into electricity and just provides some bottom heat.

So if you’re growing in trays, you can sprout things like tomatoes and other heat loving crops earlier and grow them in a protected environment. Things like broccoli and lettuce, they’re fine. They can germinate in 40 degrees soil. It’s going to take them longer. Other people have more elaborate techniques. YouTube is full of different approaches, but heat mats are awesome.

You can even use a little dome on top to expedite the process. So we make our own potting soil out of compost, sand, eggshells, and a little bit of kelp for minerals. We’ve got recipes like that. I don’t like buying a lot of stuff because when you buy your potting soil, their suppliers may change. And every year I hear about some farmers in my area, and I’m talking farmers, not just like backyard gardeners, who their supplier changed the ingredients in their soil mix and maybe it was too hot, too rich in nitrogen, and they lost all their spring seedlings because they don’t have control over that crucial part. So I think that’s a goal worth evolving towards. If not, ask some experienced gardeners what their starting mix is and copy them. Direct seeding outside totally works, but you got to remember early in the season that all of nature is waiting for spring and they see your little carrots or your lettuce seedlings come up and they’re just going to pick them off.

So depending on your environment, you may need to use floating row covers or like some hardware cloth or some other deterrent because nature’s slow to wake up, especially here in the north. So that’s another advantage of starting inside. So you can totally direct seed lettuce outside, but why not grow some nice transplants? And that’s why I love transplants because I can prepare my beds, till them right before I plant, get it all just how I like it, and then put transplants in at the exact spacing. There’s no weeds. And then my plants have that six to eight week jumpstart on all the weeds. If you go out and direct seed carrots or onions, the weeds are going to grow faster than your crop. And then you’re going to be out there doing archeology looking for like, well, where are my seed things? And especially when you’re new to gardening, you don’t know what the baby seedlings look like of your plants.

And there’s maybe weeds that look exactly like what your desired plants may look like. So transplants really give you that advantage and it’s a very fulfilling, at least for me, I like that sense of order and uniformity, no gaps.

That said, some plants like your root vegetables just work better, direct seeded. Corn, almost nobody transplants corn. You can, just because it’s not really worth doing. So just find a chart that kind of works for your area of like what people direct seed or transplant and when they do it. And then remember succession planting because like I mentioned before, if you want sweet corn, we do a May 1st planting, a June 1st and a July 1st, and then we’ve got sweet corn the whole season.

Anna Sakawsky:

Yeah. That’s something else I need to get better at. Every year I’m like, “I’m going to succession plant.” And some things I do a little bit, but I just tend to like, it’s easier in the spring. I know my dates, I know my times to start everything now. So I, for example, planted a whole row of carrots last year. We’re still eating them. The carrots are actually amazing because they last so well through the winter, especially on the west coast it’s pretty temperate, so I can still dig them out of the ground. So we’re still eating carrots that I planted last April, but I have all these good intentions to do a second planting and I just don’t get around to it. But I’m like you, I actually prefer to start a lot of them indoors and then plant out because then like you say, you have less gaps.

You can be a little bit more precise with when you’re planting and make sure … There’s certain ones that I do tend to direct. So peas being one of them, especially because they can go in really early when the soil’s still pretty cool and they’re pretty hardy. They’ll grow without issue. Although beans was another one that I’ve heard you should direct so they tend to not like to be moved as much, but I had one year. And so I do that usually, but I had one year where I think it was little pillbugs eating them, I don’t know, but the pest situation was so bad and I must have done five plantings of these. And I was at the point where I’m like, I’m going to give up. I’m almost at the end of the season where I could even plant them. And I thought, oh, well, what the heck?

I’m just going to try starting them indoors. And I was able to transplant them and they were just fine. So all of that to say that these are not always hard and fast rules, right? So for anybody who feels like maybe I did one starting out gardening and feels really intimidated by all these, do this, don’t do that. You can play with different things too. Before we wrap up, I do want to talk a little bit about the idea of days to maturity, because I do know that this is a sticking point for people.

And you mentioned it at the beginning that it doesn’t necessarily mean days from when you start the seed, but sometimes it does. So how do you know? Sometimes it’s from when you start the seed, sometimes it’s from when you plant them in the ground. So how do you know what’s what?

Don Tipping:

Yeah. Honestly, we put days to maturity on our packets because people want us to, but if I could wave a magic wand, I wouldn’t. I would just say, this is an early tomato. This is a mid-season tomato. This one takes a long time to mature because it all depends on how much fertilizer do you have in there. Did the plant get stunted because you had a free cold snap happen right after you transplanted it or did slugs eat off all the leaves of your broccoli early and then it had to grow new leaves or were conditions just perfect? So I think the days of maturity, like I mentioned before, is really just for comparing varieties to varieties and it’s coming out of that industrial mindset where the industrial frozen canned corn industry needs to know, is this a 78-day sweet corn or an 83-day sweet corn?

To the gardener, there’s so many other variables that it doesn’t really matter, but I think just to clarify, like a tomato, let’s say a really early tomato, for instance, like we have one called Oregon Spring. When I look at a packet, if it’s ours or somebody else, it’ll say 75 days. So we plant tomatoes from seed March 1st in our greenhouse. Well, 75 days after March 1st is like, what is that, May 15th? No way are we getting tomatoes May 15th? That tomato’s going to take a long time to germinate because even if it’s on bottom heat, it’s growing slowly in a greenhouse where maybe the average temperature between day and night is like 43 degrees or something in March or April. And then we’re transplanting it out end of May. We’re lucky if we’re getting tomatoes by the end of July. Well, March 1st, let’s just say August 1st, well, that’s five Five months.

Imagine if we put 150 days on a tomato and said, “This is an early tomato.” That would be truth in advertising.

Anna Sakawsky:

And

Don Tipping:

That’s why I think you always have to look a little deeper, which is why we have all these videos on YouTube and we make a blog for a seed company because that’s one way I see it. Really the role of myself as a seedsman is I don’t sell seeds. I provide a service. I help facilitate the experience of gardening and we provide seeds as a vehicle for that. But without the proper cultural information of how people do it. I’d grown okra for years to go back to okra. Before I finally was out at a small conference in Wisconsin and talking to people that had grown okra for years, that culturally for them. And they’re like, “Oh, you grow okra as a transplant?” No, you don’t do that. You plant it like corn. And they had okra that was four or five feet tall. So I’m like, “I’m going to listen to them.

They know what they’re talking about. ” So now when I grow okra, I wait till the soil’s warm end of May, early June and I direct seed it and I do way better. So there’s so much to learn. And this is why old people, sorry for calling them old, are the best gardeners because it takes so many seasons to learn all those little things. Whether you have a good memory or you keep a journal or you just get together for tea or coffee with your neighbors that garden, that’s where the collective wisdom I think is stored about how to … My goal, in permaculture, we say we go from patterns to details. And the way I look at it is I want fresh food from the garden for as long of the season as possible. And then we begin to design a system backwards from that.

Anna Sakawsky:

Yeah. I love that. And so true on looking to … Our elders will say, especially in our communities, I have a neighbor who’s, they’re elderly, but they garden and have been growing in this exact spot for many, many years now. And so I’m always kind of picking their brain and asking how they do things and seeing if I can improve and get better. And so yeah, I think that’s a great tip that that’s a great source of wisdom. And again, there’s nuance to everything, right? And you kind of have to just learn as you go and do it. And so don’t be intimidated or afraid of getting started. Even if there’s some things that you don’t understand, that’s how you learn. And every year I’m learning something new. Just when you think you’ve got it with one thing, then it’s like whack-a-mole, right? You’ve got one problem under control and then another one pops up or one crop fails one year and then one does great.

And so it’s just every year is a little bit different learning all the time. I’ve definitely learned a lot today. I didn’t know things like the different varieties, like the different, like when you’re talking about the Latin names of the different squashes. I thought all squash could cross pollinate. So that’s awesome. That’s great to know now. So then I know which ones I can save seeds from. And so there’s been some great information. I would love to have you back. I have so many more questions. I would love to at some point get into like how to actually start seed, say indoors, like what they need, looking at different, like you talked about starting or making your own blends of potting soil and what people can do with that, what kind of lights they need, all that. And then of course, I would love to talk to you later in the season too about seed saving, because that’s another big one that is a rabbit hole we could go down and we don’t have time for today, but I think that would be of great interest to a lot of people.

So I will definitely have to have you back. And I look forward to also having you as a contributor for the magazine again. But until that time, if people do want to learn more from you and about you, maybe get their hands on some of your seeds. A, where can they find you and your seeds online? But B, I also know that you do a lot of live in- person conferences and speak. I think the first time I saw you speak was at the Modern Homesteading Conference, but you do a few of these throughout the year. So if somebody wanted to catch you live, where can they maybe catch up with you this year?

Don Tipping:

Yeah. Well, I’m very much looking forward to coming back to the Modern Homesteading Conference. I really enjoyed that event and I’ll be there and sharing a couple talks and we’ll have a booth. And whenever we do a booth, I call it my office hours in town of like, come ask questions. We do a few events on our home farm that I run with my two young adult sons in Southwestern Oregon. I haven’t set dates yet, but I will be doing so soon. So we do an on- farm hands-on seed saving course. So I feel like it’s best to learn right from the plants, from the land. And you can see so many little things. So we usually do one or two of those a year and kind of a whole systems permaculture thing because we’ve got a good size flock of sheep and hundreds of fruit trees and 11 ponds and a whole interconnected farm ecosystem.

So all of that can be found on our seed website, siskuseeds.com. And that’s S-I-S-K-I-Y-O-U-S-E-E-D-S.com. And there’s a tab for our blog and other, a portal into all that stuff. And again, I just see it’s all a service helping people because I was born in Detroit, Michigan. I didn’t know any of this stuff. So I’m very much indebted to those that came before me and taught me and I want to do my best to pay it forward. And I really appreciate the time we’ve had today.

Anna Sakawsky:

Awesome. Well, thank you so much. And we will include links to your site and anything that we’ve referenced in the show today in the show notes, but thank you so much. That was super informative. Like I say, even for me, having Garden for over a decade now, I learned a lot, so I’m sure that our listeners got a lot out of the conversation as well. Yeah, so that is great. We will also obviously be at the Modern Homestead Conference this year. I’ll be there with the Homestead Living team. So I look forward to catching up with you in person there.

Don Tipping:

Wonderful.

Anna Sakawsky:

Awesome. Okay. Well, thanks so much, John. We’ll have to have you back soon.

Don Tipping:

Yeah, thank you very much.

Anna Sakawsky:

All right. Thanks everyone for joining us here today, and I will see you back here next time on The Coop. Before we wrap up today, I just want to thank you, our listeners, for being a part of this community. If you’ve been listening for a while and haven’t yet joined us as a subscriber, this is your sign to start your subscription to Homestead Living Magazine. A Homestead Living subscription includes six beautifully printed issues each year, and they’re designed to be kept, dog eared, bookmarked, pulled off your shelf and referred back to you again and again. Every issue is filled with practical skills, seasonal guidance, and trusted voices who’ve put in the hours and learned the hard way so that you don’t have to. Right now, a full year, all six issues is just $49, and it is one of the best ways to support the work that we do here while building a home library that you’ll return to again and again.

As the editor, I may be a little bit biased, but if you value thoughtful, authentic, grounded guidance from people who don’t just talk the homesteading talk, but actually walk the homesteading walk, then this magazine was made for you. So you can start your subscription now by heading to homesteadliving.com/subscribe or click the link in the show notes.

Lisa Steele:
Funny enough, because people always call chickens the gateway animal now, and it really is true. It’s kind of easy just to slide into the chickens because they’re small and they’re easy and whatever. A lot of people
Anna Sakawsky:
Think of you first when they think of who would know, who would have the answer to this chicken keeping problem, or especially if you’re what we want to go the natural route. A lot of what you talk about is creating these closed loop systems where your chickens are working together with your garden.
Lisa Steele:
So letting the chickens in before the planting season is wonderful because they get in there, they kind of do what they did in the compost pile, they spread a little manure, they scratch up the dirt, so they’re kind of like rota tilling it for you. They’re loosening the dirt. They’re looking for not only weed seeds that might sprout in your garden, they’ll eat those, they’ll eat bugs that have overwintered bug larva, so they’re really prepping your garden for the planting season.
Anna Sakawsky:
Obviously there is a growing interest in chicken keeping, gardening home setting. As the world gets crazier, more and more people seem to be coming to this lifestyle.
Lisa Steele:
No matter what’s going on in the world, being able to feed your family is never a bad thing and not have to worry. And I mean if you have eggs, eggs are so versatile. They’re such a great protein source that if you don’t have to worry about eggs and you have a small garden, you really can feed your family.
Anna Sakawsky:
Hey everyone. Before we get into today’s episode, I want to tell you about something that we created in partner with Jill Winger of the Prairie Homestead that I genuinely believe makes Homestead life more doable, and that is the Old Fashioned On Purpose Planner. This is not a disposable planner that you toss at the end of the year. Oh no. It is built to live on your counter or desk season after season to refer back to, because inside there are dedicated sections for your kitchen, garden and home where you can track pantry inventory, meal planning projects, livestock production, and the rhythms of daily life that are with you throughout the year. And here is the important part. This planner will not be reprinted. What is available now is the final run. So when they’re gone, they’re gone. And even though we are a little bit into 2026 already, you can pick this up whenever there is no rule that says you need to start on January 1st.
So if you’re craving a little more clarity, a little more intention and a tool that supports the life that you are living, this was made for you. I can genuinely say I love my Old Fashioned on Purpose Planner. As you can see, I’ve already got tons of use out of it, and we’re only a few weeks in to 2026. So you can grab your copy of the Old Fashioned on Purpose Planner right now by visiting homestead living.com, or you can head to the link in the show notes. Hello everyone and welcome back to the Coop. I’m your host, Anna Sikowski, editor in chief of Homestead Living Magazine, and joining me today is someone many of you already know and trust. She is featured on the cover of our upcoming March April issue. She’s the voice behind the wildly popular Fresh Eggs daily platform, and she is one of the people who helped bring Backyard Chicken keeping into the mainstream before it was really trendy, dubbed the Queen of the Coop by the media.
Lisa Steele is a fifth generation chicken keeper, Maine master Gardener cookbook author and the founder of Fresh Eggs Daily, one of the most trusted and recognizable voices in backyard poultry keeping. She’s been sharing time tested practical advice on raising chickens, ducks and geese along with recipes using eggs fresh from the coop and produce fresh from the garden for more than 15 years. Lisa’s journey into home setting is especially compelling because after leaving a successful career on Wall Street, she returned to her roots raising backyard poultry the old timer way, using natural methods, herbs, and a holistic approach that prioritizes healthy flocks and sustainable closed loop systems. Since launching Fresh Eggs Daily in 2009, she has been the sole voice behind the brand building a global audience of nearly a million followers who trust her grounded experience, experience-based approach. Today we’re talking about what she’s learned over the years, not just about chickens, but about gardening, home setting and designing systems where everything works together. We’ll also dig into her newly updated 10th anniversary edition of Gardening With Chickens and why this book matters now more than ever. Lisa, welcome back to the Coop.
Lisa Steele:
Hi, thanks for having me. Great introduction.
Anna Sakawsky:
Oh, awesome. Well, thank you. And for our listeners, I say welcome back to the coop because we actually tried to do this last week and had some tech issues as homesteaders do. Living rurally internet connectivity is sometimes a bit of an issue, so hopefully today everything will go smoothly, but thanks so much for taking time to be with me here again today.
Lisa Steele:
Absolutely.
Anna Sakawsky:
Well, let’s get into it. Let’s start back at the beginning and talk about how you kind of came to be known for chicken keeping and how you started the Fresh Eggs Daily blog and where that all came from. Because as I mentioned, you have a bit of an interesting trajectory. First, you are a fifth generation chicken keeper, so you started off growing up around chickens. This is not new to you, but then you moved away from that. You ended up working on Wall Street, and then you decided to kind of come back to your roots and get back into chicken keeping. So walk me through your journey from first of all, growing up in a chicken keeping family to then working on Wall Street, what you did there, how long you did that for, and then coming back in 2009 and then eventually starting Fresh Eggs Daily.
Lisa Steele:
Yeah, I firmly believe that you end up in life where you belong, and I don’t think that I could have avoided this. I think it was just in my DNA. I did grow up a small town in Massachusetts across the street from my grandparents’, chicken farm. They were legit chicken farmers, two story, two wing chicken barn. They supplied eggs and meat to local restaurants. They sold it locally, whatever. And I had chickens as a kid, small flock. I was in four H and we had a bunny at one point and I go whatever, small, not a farm, just we lived out in the country. And then I decided that there was a big world out there. So I went to college in Rhode Island and I got a degree in accounting and then got a job on Wall Street. So I moved to New York about a year after I graduated, and I worked on Wall Street for probably six or seven years, I guess.
Fun. I mean, I was in my early twenties. It was a lot of young people and it was the eighties, so things were rock and rolling. I mean, there was a lot going on, but I realized it wasn’t what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. It was a lot. It was a rat race and I couldn’t imagine being older and doing that, just the hours and the stress and all that. So long story short, well actually quit that, opened a bookstore, did that for a few years, and then I met my husband. He was in the Navy and stationed in Pensacola, Florida. So I ended up in Florida and then he retired. We moved to Virginia and he was still working for the Navy. I was kind of home not doing a whole lot, and it was 2009 and homesteading goats, everybody was making soap and everybody was making sourdough kind of what everybody did during COVID, but in 2009, and we ended up getting some chickens just kind of stumbling into it.
We had a small barn, small farm, we had two horses and I wasn’t super excited. I had chickens as a kid and they were just chores. We loved them when they were baby chicks and we would name them, and then as soon as they went outside, we lost interest. So I wasn’t a huge fan of chickens, and I remember having brewsters that weren’t friendly at all, but I love animals. And I said, well, we’ll start with the chickens. And then, I mean, funny enough, because people always call chickens the gateway animal now, and it really is true. It’s kind of easy just to slide into the chickens small and they’re easy and whatever. So started raising chickens and just randomly, because I had grown up around them, my grandmother at that point was still alive. She lived to me 99 years old. So I would go home and visit my mom and my grandmother and talk to her about her chickens.
And so I started posting on social media. Facebook was kind of brand new I guess then at the time, and people would ask me questions and I realized that I knew because I had grown up around it. So I started answering questions and started a blog, which was also pretty new at that time. There wasn’t really a ton of information out there for backyard people because I did have to take a crash course. When you’re a kid and you’re just collecting eggs, it’s a lot different than keeping chickens alive. So I did a lot of research. I read a lot of books. There wasn’t really a ton of information for the casual backyard chicken keeper that wanted them as pets with benefits, collect the eggs, but wasn’t hardcore raising them or processing them or whatever. And a lot of the information, all the information out there was if they get sick or injured, they’re probably just going to die and just get another one.
And that wasn’t really my philosophy or what I wanted to do. And since I had always kind of believed in natural herbs and we take echinacea and vitamin C and zinc when we’re sick, I knew that there had to be the same principles with chickens. I didn’t want to start giving them antibiotics and medication. So I started really researching using herbs and natural supplements with the chickens. There wasn’t a ton of information like that out there at the time. There’s a lot more now, but I found it so fascinating and it seemed like it worked. My chickens never got sick. They lived a long time. So I started sharing that information and I think it was very much the right message at the right time for the right group of people because you raise chickens because you want to know what you’re eating and that it’s clean and what your animals are eating, so you don’t want to be giving them medications and antibiotics and things like that.
Anna Sakawsky:
I’m curious to know what your, your grandparents, for example, thought of your approach to chicken keeping at this point because it is very different than if you think about a conventional chicken farm and that’s what you were raised around and that’s how they kept chickens. And then to see you using herbs and going the all natural route and that sort of thing. What were their thoughts? Did they think you were crazy or were they encouraging?
Lisa Steele:
Yeah, I mean, my grandmother said to my mom at one point she said, Lisa names all her chickens. And my mom said, well, I know they’re pets to her. I mean, they had hundreds of chickens. So obviously my grandmother was not raising all, naming all their chickens. And then she said, Lisa puts curtains in her chicken coop. And my mom said, I know she’s enjoying it, let her do her thing. But honestly, I did try to bring back some of the old timers methods. Farmers did hang burlap bags or old feed bags over the front of their nesting boxes, helps to keep the eggs from freezing. It helps to keep a curious chicken from walking by and eating the egg, and it gives broody a more private area. So maybe they weren’t actually sewing curtains and putting tiebacks, but they were using the same principle.
And I do the deep litter method, which is a very old timers method of basically composting inside your coop during the winter instead of constantly cleaning the litter out, you let it build up, you turn it, you introduce oxygen, you add new litter, and you’re creating natural heat as well as microbes that are super beneficial for the chickens. And you save yourself a ton of work in the winter. So a lot of the things that the old timers did made so much sense because they didn’t have a lot of money. Everything had to be economical and efficient. So I have taken some of those ideas and kind of incorporated them into what I’m doing,
Anna Sakawsky:
Kind of a modern version of that. So I mean obviously you became a foundational voice, I guess certainly in the backyard chicken keeping movement, even to this day. There’s other people that are doing this out there that that’s where their area of expertise is. But I think a lot of people think of you first when they think of who would know who would have the answer to this chicken keeping problem or especially if we want to go the natural route. But as you mentioned at the time, and that’s part of why you started sharing this, right? Because people were asking you questions, there wasn’t this information out there. So how did you learn all of this, right? Yes, you grew up in a chicken keeping family, but they were raising chickens in a different way.
Lisa Steele:
Where
Anna Sakawsky:
Did you learn these old timer methods from?
Lisa Steele:
I actually found some great books that were written in the 1960s. There’s an herbal, I forget what it’s called, it’s like the Herbal Guide to Farm and Stable or something like that. And there’s some really great tidbits in there. That’s where I learned about adding garlic to their water, apple cider vinegar to their water. So it took some searching, but I did find some of that. And then early on I was really lucky because I started working with some big brands like Manda Pro and Meyer Hatchery and some of the brands that had AV n vets and poultry scientists on staff. So I had access to those people and could ask them questions, which was super helpful, a microbiologist and just all kinds of people that worked for those brands that were doing a lot of the research into the different things that worked. Funny story, I live in Maine, so I was at the airport one time, I think it was LaGuardia, and it was right when the Purdue ads came out.
Purdue was saying, we feed our chickens parsley in time or whatever it is. They’re standing there with the chickens. Well, there was a guy with a Purdue jacket waiting for the same flight that I was. So I walked over to him and I said, you probably did a lot of studies into whether these herbs really have benefits for the chickens. And he said, oh, absolutely. I mean, obviously we wouldn’t spend the money feeding the chicken’s herbs and making all these commercials if we hadn’t done the studies. And I said, you’re probably not willing to share them, are you? And he said, no,
Anna Sakawsky:
And
Lisa Steele:
I tried, but for me that was big to have a big brand like that, putting the money into something that obviously isn’t inexpensive. They believed that these herbs were keeping their chickens healthier, which I think is huge. And that was years ago. But over the years, I’ve read a lot of studies. There’s a lot of scientific studies especially that come out of India, the Middle East, they do a lot of work with herbs. They don’t have access to a lot of the commercial products that we do, so they are forced to use what they have growing locally, and there’s a lot of really fascinating studies and I just like that kind of stuff.
Anna Sakawsky:
Okay. So I mean obviously that’s a big part of what you do is using herbs, doing things kind of the natural way, trying to create these closed loop systems where your garden is growing. A lot of the things that your chickens need. What does that actually look like on a daily basis? How much are you actually bringing in external inputs, feed, that sort of thing? How much are you feeding them from your land and what does that look like as far as using herbs and incorporating them into their diet or into their coop? What are you doing on a kind of practical level to incorporate these natural methods?
Lisa Steele:
So the first seven years I think that we had chickens. We lived in Virginia, so that was kind of year round. I had a really big herb garden and we had a vegetable garden. We had a compost pile that I could dig worms out of for them. So that was kind of year round that I could grow and really feed them and let them out to free range eating the grass and the weeds and stuff. Here in Maine, obviously there’s snow on the ground for much of the year, so it’s really mostly during the growing season, although I do dry extra herbs, but the chickens have their own herb garden. I planted right next to the coop, kind of a raised bed. And when they’re out free ranging, they have access to it, they can hop in, they can nibble on what they want, they can take their dust baths, whatever.
I have a kitchen garden on our deck for the herbs that we use for cooking because I don’t really want to be cooking with the herbs that the chickens have been rolling around in. But I spend a lot of time watching them and realize that if they go into your vegetable garden, they’re going to eat the entire cucumber plant. They’re going to eat all your lettuce, all your spinach, whatever. But in the herb garden, they pick and choose and they’ll nibble a little bit of this and a little bit of that. Herbs are so jam packed with nutrients and animals I believe, know what they need when they need it, how much, and they realize they don’t have to eat the whole basil plant to get what they need from that plant. So you’d be surprised at how long your garden actually stays. They don’t take it right down to the dirt.
They would a vegetable garden or whatever, which is really fascinating. And I started watching what they were eating, what they were taking their dust baths in. So the things that they take their dust baths in, like the lavender, the rosemary, things like that, mint, those are the things that I tend to cut and put in their nesting boxes and enter their dust bath area in the run. And then the things they were eating, like the basil, cilantro, parsley, those are the things that I tend to dry and either add to their feed or give it to ’em fresh when we have it. And when you start researching the benefits, you realize certain herbs help repel parasites. Certain herbs are calming. Certain herbs do have tons of health benefits internally, so they really do know what they’re doing. If you just watch what they’re doing and what they’re eating, it starts to make a lot of sense.
Anna Sakawsky:
Right. Okay. And so when you mentioned, so I’m trying to go over some of the herbs wondering first of all, from your research, like you say, obviously some have certain medicinal properties. Are they kind of the same properties or do they have the same effects on chickens as they would have on us? Would you use the same herbs for similar? Okay. And first of all, are there any herbs or plants specifically that maybe are bad for chickens or that they shouldn’t have that you maybe should be careful of if you’re going to plant a little herb garden or toss them a handful of something?
Lisa Steele:
Yeah, there are actually a poultry scientist I was talking to once we were talking about exactly that because I was asking him how much of the research that I was reading about human use could be applied to chickens. And he said something very interesting. He said that whether it’s humans or monkeys or birds or whatever, we are like 98% the same as far as our DNA and how our bodies work. And there’s like 2% that makes you a chicken or a monkey or a bird or a human. So yes, generally it’s going to work the same. There are exceptions like dogs can’t have raisins or chocolate. There are certain things that you shouldn’t feed chickens as far as the herbs go, any of the culinary herbs are fine. So anything that you’re going to be cooking with or using in your cooking, those are fine.
Penny Royal is one that you should stay away from. I think that’s in the Mint family, and that’s obviously not a culinary herb anyway. Free is controversial. A lot of people say that they do feed it and it’s okay, but I’ve seen where too much free can be a problem as well as tanzi wormwood. And again, none of those are culinary herbs, so people probably aren’t growing them through own use anyway. It’s something that you probably shouldn’t be feeding to your chickens, but your parsleys and your oregano and cilantro and rosemary, thyme, all that stuff is great for them.
Anna Sakawsky:
Perfect. Yeah, it is funny you saying that we’re only 2% different biologically or whatever. I reminded of, I interviewed Kaylee Richardson of the Honey Stu last year, and she talked about doing the same thing with her bees, that she uses the herbs in the same way where she’ll put some time where they’re going to get it on themselves. So because that helps to protect them from different diseases and that sort of thing. Right. So yeah, I just think it’s funny whether we’re talking about chickens or bees or monkeys, like you said, we can all kind of benefit from the same things. Right. That’s fascinating. And what are some practical ways, so you talk about feeding them herbs, obviously having a little garden for them, they’re going to kind of pack it at whatever’s in there. Are you just tossing them handfuls of herbs as well? Are you mixing it into their feed? How are you actually getting them to eat some of these
Lisa Steele:
Things? Yes, to all the above. Yeah. I mean obviously if they’re out free ranging, which we do limited, we have a lot of predators, but if they go out, they can eat on their own. If I have extra herbs or if I’m cooking with herbs and I cut off the stems or the stalks or there’s something that’s a little wilty or whatever, I just throw that in for them into the run and they can nibble at it, drying herbs and then feeding them through the winter. You can mix ’em into their feed. You can mix ’em into some scrambled eggs, just some oatmeal or whatever. You could just give ’em a bowl of dried herbs that probably pick at it. And you can also make herbal tea where you just basically pea water up and then steep some either fresh or dried herbs in that water, let it cool, give them that. So really any which way that you can figure out to add those herbs to their diet is going to be great.
Anna Sakawsky:
Yeah. You mentioned putting garlic in their water, so getting them to kind of get the medicinal properties of that garlic by drinking the water, are they ever turned off by that? Especially garlic, you hear that that actually repels a lot of things because of the strong scent and flavor and everything. Have you ever had any chickens that are like, no, I don’t want to drink this. This seems gross.
Lisa Steele:
No, and I mean, well, for my baby chicks, I like to give them fresh herbs to get them used to eating them and nibbling ’em at them, and it gives ’em something to do. But same with the garlic, I’ll just put a little garlic, a little apple cider vinegar in the chick’s water, so they get used to it. If you’re starting out with it, I would always put out plain water also, but I’ve also read studies that the chickens actually prefer the water with the apple cider vinegar and or garlic, you can put it at the same time, they don’t have a great sense of taste, so it’s probably not going to turn them off. And our ducks will actually fish the pieces of garlic right out of the water and eat them. So no, I don’t think that that harms them. And I do believe that. Same with people. If you eat a lot of garlic, then people say that ticks or mosquitoes are not going to bother you as much because they don’t like that taste that gets into your body. And I think same with the chickens, I think that having the garlic in their diet helps repel a lot of the parasites that might otherwise bother them.
Anna Sakawsky:
Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, that’s really interesting. Okay. And another thing that you do is you add herbs to their nesting boxes into the coop itself, right? I do. So what is the reasoning behind that and what specific herbs are you adding in into the nesting boxes?
Lisa Steele:
Yeah, that’s something else that I had read about early on is that scientists have observed wild birds picking flowers and leaves and herbs and things and lining their nests with them. And the thought was that the aromatics will keep bugs like mites and things can get into wild birds nests and be harmful for the baby birds. So they observed the wild birds doing this, and so it kind of just makes sense. So I will put things in like marigolds, marigold petals. A lot of people plant marigolds on the outside of their garden. It’ll keep a lot of the pests away. I put lavender, I put mint, rosemary, pretty much anything that just smells really, really strong. Chickens have almost zero sense of smell, so nothing is going to turn them off. They don’t care. But in addition to hopefully keeping bugs and things out of your nest, it can help keep mice out. Mice don’t love strong smells. They do have a very good sense of smell and they use their noses to detect a predator. So if you put things in your coop that have a strong scent, they cannot detect a predator coming and it makes them a little bit uneasy and they’re not going to want to make a home in your coop because they can’t accurately detect a predator’s presence. This stuff is so fascinating. I just find it all so interesting.
Anna Sakawsky:
It really is fascinating, and yeah, when you think about it, it makes so much sense. Okay, I do want to talk about your coop for a minute because between the herbs and the curtains and the little decor that you have in there, your coop has kind of become a little bit iconic. For anybody who is listening or watching and has not seen photos of Lisa’s coop, you got to go check ’em out. If you have the November, December issue of Homestead Living Magazine, we featured some photos of your cup coupon there. Lisa wrote an article all about decorating your chicken coop for Christmas. It was just kind of a fun article, but it was just, I think it’s inspiring because that’s a lot of the reason why people get into this. Yes, there’s the practical aspect of we want eggs, we want meat, whatever the practical reasons are for chicken keeping, but we want to have fun with it too, right?
As homesteaders, we want to make things fun, and if you can make things beautiful as well, and you’ve really leaned into this, and so Lisa’s coop, you’ve got, like I say, you’ve got the curtains up, you’ve got a little chair in there that they can hop up on. It’s really quite nice, honestly, in your opinion, as somebody who I guess does this online as a bit of an influencer, I’m sure a lot of people probably look at that and go, well, yeah, but that’s just for photos. Do you genuinely keep your coop that way? And how do you keep it looking So cute because chicken started. I do. I
Lisa Steele:
Was heavily influenced by Joanna Gaines years ago. I watched way too much mixer upper, and I thought, wouldn’t it be fun to shiplap the inside of the coop? And I went to Home Depot got all the, they sell shiplap. You just have to nail it up, cut it aside. It’s really easy. So I’m doing it. And then I was thinking, is this crazy to have the entire inside of my coop white? I really loved it though. It brightened everything up. I can’t think it kept the coop warmer. I loved the double wall because it kind of held air in between, so it was kind of like a little insulation. And realistically, I mean, I did that years ago, and sure it needs to be dusted. There’s some cobwebs and things, but it has stayed much cleaner than I expected. The one thing I did though, around the wall behind and to the side of the roosts, which honestly is where most of the poop goes, I put up contact paper.
You can get contact paper that looks like wallpaper. It’s really beautiful and it’s so easy just to sponge off. So I did that because there’s no way you’re getting poop off a shiplap, I can tell you that much. But yeah, it stayed nice. I have curtains. Originally I was sewing the curtains, whatever, throwing them, making tiebacks. Then I realized I could get a curtain rod that has little rings with clips. So all you need to do is cut a piece of material and clip it onto the rings so it’s easy to take off to wash or just throw away when it needs to be. So keeping it clean really is not difficult at all. And it does look really cute. I like the curtains over the windows because when it’s cold in the winter, I can shut them. So I think it keeps in the body heat a little bit. And then of course in the summer I can shut ’em to keep the sun out. So again, okay, I get a lot of flack for doing things that maybe seem a little like whatever, but realistically, most of them do have a very functional and practical purpose bottom line.
Anna Sakawsky:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you think about it, we have curtains for reasons other than aesthetics and that sort of thing in our home. It’s kind of after the conversation about herbs and stuff that what’s good for us is good for our animals as well. I mean, maybe not everything or to the nth degree kind of thing, but if it makes sense on a practical level, why not? And if you’re having fun with it, absolutely. Why not? I think it’s awesome. Yeah. So I mean, obviously if I were a chicken, I would want to live in your coop. It is gorgeous. You take very good care of your animals. You’ve got herbs in there, everything smells nice. You talked also about mixing herbs into eggs and that sort of thing. I’m curious what other types of things you feed them. I mean, most backyard chicken keepers, I would say homesteaders, that sort of thing.
We kind of all know or have the chicken bucket or we always have a bowl of scraps that’s going out to the coop, that sort of thing. And they’re obviously great because they can make use of all that stuff. But is there anything else specifically that you try to make sure that your chickens get, again, feeding them back some of their eggs? Do you feed them? I know people will feed them crushed egg shells, that sort of thing. What other types of foods that are maybe kind of naturally byproducts from your property, the things that you’re growing or things that are coming out of your kitchen? Are you making sure that the chickens are
Lisa Steele:
Getting Yeah, definitely to the eggshells. I mean, anybody who’s not feeding the eggshells back to their chickens, it’s a free, very available source of calcium. And my grandmother was not going out and buying crushed oyster shell. She was crushing those eggshells and feeding ’em back. And people overcomplicate that they do not need to be baked. They do not need to be pulverized. In fact, they shouldn’t be pulverized. They absorb a battery if they’re in a little bit bigger pieces. So I’ll just take my fingers and crush ’em up after I’ve cracked the egg. If I have too many and I’m not going to give ’em right away, I will pull the membrane out because they just dry a lot better without the membrane, but they can just air dry and then you can just crush ’em with your hands or with a rolling pin. So people overcomplicate that. I see so many people on social media saying that you have to bake ’em and then pul them. And honestly, if I break an egg in the coop or if I go down in once cracked, I just throw the eggshell halves into the run and the ducks eat ’em like potato chips. They don’t care. They love ’em. So that’s eggshells.
Anna Sakawsky:
I was just going to say, I’ve noticed too, if an egg gets broken in the coop, one knocks one on the ground or something while I’m collecting them or whatever, they love the eggs. And again, you talk a lot about how chickens, animals in general seem to be really intuitive and know what they need. I remember being freaked out about it at first when I first got chickens. I’m like, oh my God, they’re eating their own eggs. That can’t be good. But again, they seem to really enjoy it. I figure it’s got to be good protein and calcium from the egg shell and everything like that. And so every once in a while too, I’ll just smash one in there and let them have it. Do you do that kind of thing too? Will you just kind of feed some back to ’em? Every once in a while?
Lisa Steele:
I do. And if you want to get rage bait on social media, just smash an egg on the ground and let your chickens have at it. I do believe that. I think that most of the people who have problems with their chickens eating eggs, grabbing them themselves is because they’re not getting enough calcium or they’re not getting what they need. And I think if you give the chickens the eggs, whether they’re cooked or raw, it’s going to give ’em what they need. They’re not going to go looking for something else. I have never had a problem with my chickens just going and finding eggs and eating them, and I same as you. If an egg cracks or I just don’t feel like carrying it back to the house, I just smash it on the ground. They eat it, they’re fine. But if you are worried about that, you can always cook ’em, scramble ’em up or whatever. But eggs, before a chick hatches, it absorbs the yolk of the egg that it’s in, and that’s the nutrition that it has for the first 48 hours or so. An egg has every nutrient that you need, whether us or chickens need for life, except for vitamin C, it’s almost like the most complete food that there is. So feeding your chicken’s eggs is great.
Anna Sakawsky:
Okay, good. That’s really good to know. Yeah, I have wondered about that. But I’ve also noticed same thing, like you said, they don’t go and just eat their eggs. If one kind of smashes and yolk is out and whatever, then they’ll peck at it. But they’re not looking at eggs as a food source, right?
Lisa Steele:
As long as you regularly, as long as they have a good diet, a balanced diet, maybe if they’re bored, it can happen. But yeah,
Anna Sakawsky:
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And head to azure standard.com right now to get started. Again, that’s azure standard.com. Okay, so we’re going to get into this a little bit more in just a sec too, but creating these closed loop systems producing things on your land that you’re actually feeding back to your chickens, especially from the garden. But just on this topic, I have another quick question for you. What about meat and specifically chicken meat? I have heard mixed things about this that you should not feed your chickens chicken meat, they could develop blood lust or whatever. If you’re cooking chicken in the kitchen or something and you’ve got a little bit of scraps leftover, or I have a toddler that maybe doesn’t finish all his food, do you toss that kind of stuff to them or do you not give them that?
Lisa Steele:
The chickens get, I mean, you should see chickens go out of Turkey carcass from Thanksgiving. They will pick that clean.
Realistically, chickens are cannibals. I mean, they would eat each other if they could. I mean, I’m convinced, but yeah, there’s no such thing as like mad cow disease or there’s no problem with feeding chickens. We don’t eat a ton of chicken, honestly, but I give them meat scraps. I give them, like I said, the Turkey carcass. I give them salmon skin, shrimp shells, lobster shells, all that kind of protein and meat is so great for them. There’s very little. I do have the little bucket next to the stove that my mom had, that my grandmother had, that all chicken keepers have pretty much everything goes into that, except for obviously tea bags of coffee grounds. I don’t go out of my way to put onions in there, but if I have leftover salad or soup or something that has onions in it, I’m not going to pick them out.
I’ll give them the leftovers, but I don’t go out of my way. Avocados, I do steer clear of avocados are toxic to most birds, so you kind of don’t want to give ’em avocado. They don’t love citrus, so I don’t bother to give them orange slices or lemon slices or whatever. Those go in the compost as far as what I cook with. I mean almost everything else. And the healthier you are eating, if you’re a frying chicken every night and eating bagfuls of cookies and giving them the stale cookies and all that, they’re not going to be super healthy. But if you’re eating whole grains and lean meats and a lot of fruits and vegetables and all that, then all of you are trimmings and ends and scraps and stuff should be fine for them.
Anna Sakawsky:
Well, and for anybody listening too who’s like, oh, okay, good. Don’t feed them avocados. They don’t like citrus. No onion peels in there. We talked about this last time when I had you on last week, and it didn’t record right, but I was just saying that we actually, after many years or a number of years now, having chickens and our garden and everything else and kind of having to remap where we should have everything you kind of learn after a while with your property, where things should be. I was mentioning we used to have our compost in the front yard, which is where our main garden is. That’s where we get full sun south facing. But we had a big bindweed problem. And so the bindweed was always growing through the compost bin, but we had this kind of space beside our chicken run that we finally went, well, why don’t we just move the compost back here and there’s a throughway to the garden.
And so we clued in. We moved our compost bin back there. So now everything that we compost goes back there, and then the chickens get let out there and they dig through it. And so our feed bucket is also just the compost bucket, and it all goes into one place. And honestly, we don’t worry. I throw avocado peels in there, I throw citrus peels, I throw onion peels, whatever, it all goes in there. But like you said, I feel like they kind of know what to eat and not eat. I’ve never had an issue with them. And so then therefore, they pick through what they, they eat it out of there, and then the rest just gets composted naturally. But then they’re also in there digging the compost scratching, adding their manure to it, pecking through for bugs. I’ll go in there and turn it every once in a while, and there’s tons of earthworms, which they love and gives them protein.
So just so that people aren’t like, oh, because I remember, especially as a new chicken keeper, new at anything you hear, don’t do something. And it’s like a golden rule. It’s like you think, oh my God, if I do that, the whole world’s going to end. But I think, yeah, don’t worry too much about it. And also, I think it’s, that’s a good example of how you can start to create some of these closed loop systems where these elements are working together. You got the chickens working, the compost, adding to the compost, compost is working for the chickens. They’re packing stuff out of
Lisa Steele:
There. You’re giving them such a variety of things that they can pick and choose. I wouldn’t throw them only onions for a month, but as long as you’re giving them this whole buffet of things, then that’s perfectly fine. And I should also mention that toxic does not mean immediately fatal. So some things have toxins in them, but it doesn’t mean if your chicken eats it, it’s going to kill them. It just means there are toxic substances that might cause anemia or might be harmful if a chicken is already sick or older or whatever. So that’s just to keep in mind, right?
Anna Sakawsky:
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Okay, so let’s talk about more of this idea of creating closed loop systems. This is something that you talk a lot about. I know it’s something that you have talked about a lot in your new book, or actually it’s not a new book, but this is a book that you wrote actually 10 years ago now. 2016, you released a book called Gardening with Chickens, and we’ve just now this year are re-releasing a 10th anniversary edition of Gardening with Chickens. And a lot of what you talk about is creating these closed loop systems where your chickens are working together with your garden. So first of all, what are some of the different ways that is working on your property? How are your chickens supporting your garden and your garden supporting your chickens?
Lisa Steele:
Yeah, I think a lot of people get discouraged because they get chickens, and we talked about this last time. They get chickens and they see these idyllic videos on social media where the chickens are just kind of roaming through the lawn or roaming through the garden, and then they get chickens and the chickens destroy their lawn, destroy all their landscaping, all their mulch, eat their whole garden, and they just get discouraged and pen up the chickens. And that really is not using them to their best advantage. So absolutely, if you have chickens, you’re going to have to fence your garden in if you’re going to let them out at all. I mean, that’s just the reality of it because you turn your back and all your vegetables will be gone. But the key is timing. So letting the chickens in before the planting season is wonderful because they get in there, they kind of do what they did in the compost pile.
They spread a little manure, they scratch up the dirt. So they’re kind of like rota tilling it for you. They’re loosening the dirt. They’re looking for not only weed seeds that might sprout in your garden, they’ll eat those. They’ll eat bugs that have overwintered bug larvae. So they’re really prepping your garden for the planting season. So then once you’re ready to plant, get them out of there. Make sure they don’t have access when they’re small seedlings in that they will just destroy them. And then during the growing season, I generally don’t let them in the garden either. Unless you’re going to really closely supervise and you only have a few chickens, they’re just going to destroy everything. But then once you’ve harvested all your vegetables in the fall, let them back in because again, they’ll turn the soil over any stalks or stems or plants that are left, maybe there’s a couple tomatoes that were bug eaten, some things that are a little past their prime.
They’ll eat all of those. They will eat bugs that we’re going to hang around for the winter. So they really do a great job of prepping the soil and then after the season, kind of getting it ready for the off season. And of course, all winter if you’re not planting anything, you can let them roam around as much as they want, but it really is just about the timing and then putting them to work. And then of course, even during the growing season when they’re not allowed in the garden, you have to thin your seedlings because you plant and then everything’s too close together. So you thin those seedlings, well give them to the chickens. They’re like, I mean, they’re super nutritious and they’re going to love ’em. So they can still help you out during the growing season. Or you find the zucchini that was under the leaf and now it’s like three feet long. It’s just going to be too dry and not good to eat. Slice it up and give it to the chickens. Of course, you should always share whatever you’re growing contributed the manure and stuff. So they deserve to share in the harvest as well.
Anna Sakawsky:
Yeah, for sure. And bugs too. You pick off a tomato horn worm or something like that, throw that to the chickens first of all. Then you actually make sure you eliminate that problem or that particular bug anyway. You’re not tossing it somewhere, whatever. But that’s great extra protein for them too, right? Yeah. And I like that you obviously bring up the fact that they can support each other. So the chickens are digging and scratching, turning your soil, debugging everything, eating stuff that needs to be eaten, but then that you’re also keeping them away from your main season garden. Because the reality is that they will, yeah, they’ll eat the weeds, they’ll eat the bugs, but they’ll also eat plants and that sort of thing too, and they’ll totally dig up your beds. And I just think that it’s something that gets romanticized a bit. I think people see it again online or wherever they get the idea that like, oh, I’m just going to have my chickens free range everywhere, and they’re just going to be wandering through the gardens and it’s going to look like a little, I don’t know, Beatrix Potter story.
But then they get them and they try to do this, and they realize that like, oh my God, this isn’t actually as easy as I thought it would be, and they just ruined everything. And I ate something that I spent four months growing or destroyed my garden bed or pooped all over my deck, whatever it is. And then like you say, then sometimes they go to the extreme and they’re like, okay, I just can’t let them out, which isn’t good for them either, and kind of ruins any romanticism that is left. So I think it’s nice that there’s a bit of a happy medium, and it’s all about a timing, so letting them in at a certain time, then keeping them out of the main season garden. But what about during that main season? So you said fence your garden. Do you keep your chickens in their run or do you still let them free range and then just protect the garden area? How do you kind of balance that during the summer season?
Lisa Steele:
Yeah, that’s the easiest thing to do. And then I also, I use chicken wire CLOs. You can either buy them or I make ’em out of tomato cages upside down and just put chicken wire around it. And I plop those over my other plants, not just your vegetable garden. I mean, they’re going to ruin your flower beds and all your landscaping and whatever. So when some of the other plants and bushes and stuff are small, I just plop. I mean, we have cages all over everything because I just don’t want them destroying the plants while they’re small. And then once they’re a foot or two tall, even if they eat some of the lower branches and stuff, they’ll be fine. But I do protect individual plants that way in the landscaping around the house and everything. But the easiest thing is to get a fence around your garden.
And it doesn’t have to be super tall like we were talking, but if it’s a post fence where the chickens can flatter and flap up and then perch and then hop over, they’re going to get over a much higher fence than if you just have a flimsy, like that plastic, the bird netting or whatever that’s called is really good to use. Take metal spikes and use them at the corners or stakes or whatever, and just put that flimsy fencing around because chickens have a harder time getting over that because there’s nothing for them to go up perch and over. They kind of have to clear it all in one movement, and that’s going to be really tough for them. So I find that that actually works better than a more well fence, probably going to have to, like you said, you’ve had chickens get over a five foot fence?
Anna Sakawsky:
Yeah, yeah. Oh, it’s funny. Yeah, we were talking about this last time I had you on here. And yeah, my chickens will get up. We have basically a five or six foot fence, but it’s got posts on top that they can get up and roosts there, get up on top and then hop over. Whereas we have a shorter four foot fence that kind of keeps them in their run, but it doesn’t have that top to it. And so they have a much harder time. They don’t get out of that one as much.
Lisa Steele:
And
Anna Sakawsky:
Then I wanted to talk to you, we did mention this last time, but what is your philosophy on clipping wings? Because we have done a bit of both. We’ve had some sneaky chickens that we just because we are on a pretty small property where we have neighbors next door, we’ve had a couple chickens that just won’t stay in the yard, and our neighbors are so good about it, but rather than having to be going and getting them all the time or building Fort Knox, we did decide to clip a few of the wings from the research we’ve done. It’s kind of like clipping nails. It doesn’t necessarily hurt them, but there are always pros and cons. What’s your take on clipping wings?
Lisa Steele:
I don’t love it. I don’t like the way it looks. First of all, you are kind of clipping the ends of the wing off. You’re only supposed to, do you do one wing or both?
Anna Sakawsky:
We’ve done both when we’ve done it.
Lisa Steele:
Okay. Because actually I’ve never actually done it, but from what I understand is you’re supposed to do one because it really throws off the balance. The balance. I personally don’t do it because chickens are super vulnerable when they’re out free ranging and really their only defense is to get up into a tree or onto something or the roof of the coop or whatever. And so you’re kind of taking away their only defense. So you have to weigh, like you said, I mean if they hop over your fence and get hit by a car, that’s not good either. So you got to decide what’s the best for you. But yeah, for us, I’ve never done it. I do want to leave them that one little glimmer of hope if they happen to see a fox or coyote or something like that and they need to get away fast.
Anna Sakawsky:
Yeah, that makes sense too. And that’s the thing is we’re always kind of weighing out, if we do this, then we’re creating this problem on this end, but if we leave it this way, then we’ve got this problem. So what’s kind of better and worse now? What are your thoughts on chicken tractors? Because I know that people will use chicken tractors as a way to let their hands or their chickens free range as in get around their property, pack it and scratch at different areas, that sort of thing, get out of the main coop and run, but still be protected. Do you use anything like that?
Lisa Steele:
I mean, we have a pretty large property, and I mean, our grass is never going to win any awards anyway, so I don’t really care if they are all over the place, whatever. Personally, I don’t love the tractors, but I do believe that you can be talking about a couple different things. If you’re talking about a tractor that’s about the size of one of those little starter coops, I don’t love them because they’re still not giving the chickens much room to exercise. They can’t run, they can’t chase butterflies. They’re still in a pretty small confined space. But I have seen tractors that people actually pull with a tractor that are pretty large and that do give the chickens a lot of room and they can move it around to different spots, give the run a break. So yeah, it depends on what you’re talking about. In general, I’m not a huge fan. They’re also not super predator proof because something can dig under them pretty easily. So if you’re planning on keeping your chickens in an overnight, probably not a great idea. But you said you’ve used them pretty successfully.
Anna Sakawsky:
Well, we built one a few years ago and we used it successfully, but the problem for us is we are only on a quarter acre, so there’s only so many places to move it to, so it didn’t make a lot of sense. So we ended up just selling it. And then now what we’ve done, again, after many years of observation on our property, and so we moved the compost bin back to where the chickens are, and there’s kind of a throughway there, but we didn’t want them just being able to get out into the garden whenever, because like you said, if it’s during the main growing season, they can destroy things. And so we wanted to control access a bit, but we’ve had this bindweed issue as well that we’ve been trying to deal with. And especially along the fence line, it’s a big problem because it’s like coming over from the neighbor’s yard and it’s really hard to totally eradicate it there.
So my husband actually came up with the idea of building a chicken tunnel, so it’s kind of like a chicken wire tunnel that we built along the fence. So they have their coop and their main, they actually run, they’re going to just take over the whole property soon because first they had their coop and their little main outdoor run. Then that outdoor run expanded to include the area with the compost and the whole one side of the backyard. And now they also have this chicken tunnel that they can access anytime that goes all the way down the front yard. And then like you say, in the spring and fall and in the off season, they’re allowed just in the garden in general, which is fenced off because we also have deer. So they’re protected at least somewhat in there. They’re not going to just wander away.
But that has worked actually pretty well so far. The chicken tunnel, we have no sign. I mean, it’s the off season, we’ll see in the summer, but it gives them a lot more room to roam and no bind. Wheat has come back yet. So they’re kind of, again, a way of having them. They’re getting some extra space, they’re getting some extra food by being able to forge along the fence line. And then we’re also taking care of an issue that would take a lot of manpower to deal with too. So I think it just hearkens back to this idea of the closed loop system, that there’s many different ways to have your chickens or your animals working with your garden or your property and vice versa, right?
Lisa Steele:
Yeah. And I love the idea about a tunnel around the perimeter of your garden, because if your chickens are running around in that all day, grasshoppers and other bugs that are trying to get into your garden, they’re hopefully going to intercept them. So it’s great protein for the chickens. And then you’ll see fewer bugs in the garden, which is always the idea. You don’t want to be spraying your garden with pesticides, and that’s not why we grow our own food. So yeah, chickens, they can be super helpful, but they just have to be supervised really carefully.
Anna Sakawsky:
Yeah. Well, and again, you talk a lot about that in your book, which you have re-released, it’s actually coming out with Homestead Living next month, it’ll be next month once this podcast airs March, 2026. So talk to me a little bit about what people can expect from this book. First of all, you wrote it initially back in 2016, so what problem were you trying to solve for people back then? What information did you share in the original release? And then what new perspectives or lessons have you learned over the past 10 years that made you feel like it was time to revisit and expand the book and re-release it this year?
Lisa Steele:
Yeah, it was my third book, I believe, and I had written kind of a basic chicken keeping book, a basic duck keeping book, and I really was working a lot with the herbs. We had a garden, we lived in Virginia, and I just thought it was a really interesting topic and there was a lot to say about it. And I was going to gardening conferences at the time because I am interested in gardening. And it was amazing. I many gardeners seemed interested in raising chickens, but didn’t really know what that would look like. So I thought it was something that there was a lot to talk about. There was a lot that I had learned just from trying to save our garden from our chickens. But then ironically, as the book was kind of coming out, we were doing the photography before it, we moved to Maine.
So the original book was just from the perspective of living in Virginia. So now 10 years later, I’ve written a bunch more books and I thought it would be really fun for the 10 year anniversary to put out a reissue and started looking at the content and what was in there. And then I realized now I have 10 years of experience living in a cold climate, which brings its own challenges and lessons and all that. So we really took the book down to the bare bones. I mean, at first we were kind of thinking, we’ll just reissue it, clean it up a little, whatever. It really is a completely different book because now I’ve got the perspective of a warm climate and a cold climate. I’ve now got 10 more years of experience, things that I’ve tried, things that work, things that don’t work. So we did pull some things out of the book that maybe weren’t as relevant or I feel like I covered in another book, written a bunch of books since then and we added a lot of things that I had learned different ways.
We added a whole section on keeping your chickens safe from predators, because once you start letting them out, that’s something you really have to focus on. And I think the book didn’t really talk about that as much. Again, it’s the idyllic, you watch a couple reels and you think your chickens are going to be fine, and then you let your chickens out and a hawk grabs one of ’em. So I thought it was important to talk about not only protecting your garden, but protecting your chickens while they’re out helping with your garden. So we did that and it’s more refined, I think, and I think it’s going to be a lot more helpful to people who really want to do this. And yeah, I don’t know. I mean, it is almost like a completely different book. I feel like people who bought the original book, if it was titled something different, wouldn’t even realize that it was the same book because the angle was different.
In the original book, we had a lot of illustrations of garden plots. If you want orange egg yolks, well here are the herbs that you should feed for that. And we did keep that information, but we reworked it in a different way. So I think the biggest thing though is 10 additional years of experience and also different climates. Now I think you can grow the same things because grown watermelon, I’ve grown sweet potatoes up here, grow corn. I feel like you could grow the same things, but the timing is very different. And then of course, because we’re not growing all through the winter, when I clean my coop out, I can take all that chicken manure and straw and feathers and everything and put them right on the garden because by the time we plant in the spring, it’ll have had time to age. You can’t throw fresh manure on the garden because it’s got pathogens in it. It’s probably got weed seeds in it, whatever it’s got in it. And Virginia, we couldn’t really do that because I did grow stuff in the winter, so I didn’t really have a time when the garden was dormant for six or eight months. So yeah, there was just a lot more insight into, but definitely not just for people that live in cold climates because the first seven years I was in hot, humid Virginia.
Anna Sakawsky:
Right. Well, really good to know too because yeah, I think that’s where sometimes homesteaders gardeners, chicken keepers, we can get so wrapped up in our little world and this is how we do it, and this is the month you do this and this is what to grow. And not thinking that will people live in different climates and have access to different things. And so it is kind of nice that it sounds like this will resonate with people no matter where they’re at geographically. I hope so. Yeah. But I would imagine also, no matter what level they’re at, maybe not if you’re at the expert level, but it sounds like it’s good for beginner gardeners and chicken keepers, but also maybe for people that have been doing this for a while and are still just trying to nail down some of these systems or close some of these loops or just manage some of these problems that they’ve had over the years and are just looking for some advice.
Lisa Steele:
Yeah, I mean, I think even an expert gardener who just has gotten chickens is going to find value in it, or someone who’s had chickens for 15 years but really has never thought about integrating them into the garden. So I do it. Or if you’re a beginner in both things, it’s a great time to set up. Like you said, you’ve tried a couple things. We’ve tried a million things. It’s a great time to think about where are you going to put your coop, where are you going to put your garden? So if you’re just starting out with chickens and or gardening, it is a good time to prep and maybe some of these questions that didn’t come up before because you didn’t think about integrating them now, it more important to think about these things. Where’s your water source in relation to where your coop is, where your garden is? There’s just all those considerations.
Anna Sakawsky:
Yeah. Well, I’m sure it can save people a lot of time and hopefully some mistakes. I think it’s important for everybody and everybody is going to make their own mistakes, and that is how you learn. I think those are the biggest opportunities for learning is when we make mistakes ourselves because we go, Ooh, that hurt. I don’t want to do that again. But also if we can learn from somebody else’s experience and mistakes and maybe shave some years off. Like I say, for us, we still haven’t dialed in our property, but we’re getting there. But it’s taken us seven or eight years of really trying different things and observing and trying different things in different areas to really get it. Whereas if somebody’s already done this when you’re reading the book and you’re like, oh yeah, getting these ideas right from the start so that maybe you can put some of these systems in place from the start and save yourself some time and heartache.
So it sounds like there’s some great information in there. I’m really looking forward to getting my copy. And I mean obviously there is a growing interest in chicken keeping, gardening home setting. As the world gets crazier, more and more people seem to be coming to this lifestyle. I’m curious to know, because you have been in the online space for a number of years now, 17 years since you started Fresh Eggs Daily, what have you noticed about the people who have come to home setting and chicken keeping over the years? Has there been a pretty steady interest? And I know I think we talked about this last time, but I think you had mentioned it was really big, and I’ve heard this from a few people. It was really big back in 2009, for example, because of the 2008 financial crisis, same kind of thing as COVID where people took an interest because it’s like, oh, maybe our systems are not as stable as we thought they were. Maybe we should be a little bit more self-sufficient, all that stuff. So people took an interest then what have you seen over the years? Has that fluctuated? Has it remained kind of steady? Has it skyrocketed in the last few years? And has the demographic of people that are coming to backyard chicken keeping and home setting changed or has it remained mostly the same?
Lisa Steele:
I think, well, you’re exactly right. 2009 when I got it in, like I said, right place, right time, I mean it seemed like people were nervous, they were out of work, a lot of uncertainty, and so they turned to what can we do to grow and raise and make ourselves more? And then it really kind of leveled off. I think it plateaued for the next couple of years, a lot of years. And then when COVID came, it was like Groundhog Day. It was right back to a lot of brand new people, a lot of people just getting into it. People worried because they went to the store and there were no eggs or things were getting really expensive, a lot of people out of work or staying home. So they had the time they thought. I don’t think a lot of people who started get out of it.
I think very few people start raising chickens and decide it’s not for them. Of course there are some, but I think for the most part, people stick with it. And I know I have people who have been following me since 2009, and it was a much smaller community back then. So I recognize names and the people that would comment all the time. I think the demographic has changed mostly because more areas are allowing chickens, a lot of suburban areas, even inner cities. Every day I get the Google alerts about backyard chickens and it seems like every day there’s another municipality or city or town somewhere petitioning to have chickens or they’re going to let you have more than five chickens or whatever. So I think that in that respect, the demographic has changed because it’s allowing more people to raise chickens that live in different areas. So it’s not just people that live in rural areas. And I think it is a lot of moms in cul-de-sacs and just families, young families, and I think that’s great because I think that no matter what’s going on in the world, being able to feed your family is never a bad thing and not have to worry. I mean, if you have eggs, eggs are so versatile. They’re such a great protein source that
If you don’t have to worry about eggs and you have a small garden, you really can feed your family pretty well.
Anna Sakawsky:
Yeah, for sure. I’m going to end on a question that I’ve asked many of our guests before because on that note that there’s more people in urban settings or suburban settings, folks that are not necessarily rural that are doing this, right? They’re planting a little garden, even if it’s just small, they’re keeping chickens, even if it’s just a few. During COVID people, everybody was starting a sourdough starter and we’re seeing more people come to this and you don’t necessarily need to have a lot of land. You yourself have even called yourself. I think I heard on a podcast before you said, well, I’m kind of a light version of a homesteader. And I think we get it in our mind sometime that in order to do this, to live this lifestyle you need, I always say the 10 acres and the milk cow kind of thing that you need the Joel salad kind of setup.
You need all this land. I hear people saying like, oh, I’d love to do this. I’d love to keep chickens. I’d love to have a garden. I’d love someday. Someday when I hopefully move out, get the land, whatever it is. But they just think, well, but I’m not going to take any action on it until then because I just can’t do it. Whereas I think we’re seeing that you can do it even if you have a smaller space. So I’m just curious, in your own words, how would you describe homesteading as it pertains to modern life? What does that mean to you?
Lisa Steele:
I’m not sure. Well, I guess I like the term because it just basically is saying that you are doing things in your home. I mean, even when I lived in an apartment in New York, I had herbs growing on the window sill, even if that’s the only thing you do. I love fresh herbs. I love cooking with them, and they’re expensive. So if that’s the only thing you do, you can plant a tomato in a pot on your fire escape. I do hear a lot of people say, oh, I wish I could do that, or I wish I can’t wait until the day. And it’s like, well, why wait five chickens don’t take out much more space than a dog. If you have a small coop like the sides of a dog house and a little run attached, a small suburban backyard can handle a couple of chickens. You don’t need 35 chickens or you don’t even need five, you can have three. I would say just do it. I don’t think that waiting until you have the perfect situation makes sense. And anybody can bake bread. You don’t need a farm to bake bread you don’t need. But I will say sourdough is tricky. I’ve killed more sourdough starter than anything, so I wouldn’t start with sourdough. I just find that kind of hard, but regular bread,
Anna Sakawsky:
Funny you say that because I’m the same way. It’s funny, they always like chickens are the gateway to other animals, and they always say sourdough is the gateway to other things, but I find sourdough one of the hardest. I could do it. I baked lots of sourdough in the past, and actually my sourdough starter is incredibly resilient considering how much neglect it gets. But I always find it’s the hardest thing to keep up with because it takes, you have to stay on a schedule. I’m like, oh, I forgot to feed it again. I got to build it back up again. Whereas the chickens are easy. You feed them, you give ’em water, you keep ’em pretty healthy and happy, and they do the work. And again, if you compare ’em with the garden and set certain systems up strategically, they can do a lot of the work out there. I’m not even having to weed parts of it now. I think that in many ways, chicken keeping has been much easier than keeping a sour easy
Lisa Steele:
Once you have your routine down when it’s cold. I mean, I can go down and let them out and feed them, and I swear like three and a half minutes. It’s not like a huge time commitment. You’ve got to be consistent. You’ll be there every day. But yeah, sourdough, I was shocked when sourdough took off during COVID because if anything sourdough would put me off baking bread ever again in my life. I just think it’s one of the hardest things I’ve ever tried to do. So I mean, go figure.
Anna Sakawsky:
Totally. And there’s people, that is their thing. And I just think that that’s important because again, home setting looks very different for everybody. Priorities look different for everybody. Just because I’m doing something one way or you are doing something one way or somebody else is doing something another way, doesn’t mean that you have to do it that same way. You can choose what works for you, what makes the most sense in your life. And that makes you a homesteader too. You don’t do if you’re doing anything at home, I think. Yeah, exactly.
Lisa Steele:
No, absolutely. You do not have to do everything. I’m also a terrible canner. I’ve tried canning and no, not for me. I mean, there’s a reason we have grocery stores, and you can also just freeze vegetables instead of canning them. So if you try something you don’t like it, don’t feel like you have to keep doing it. Absolutely not
Anna Sakawsky:
For sure. Well, I definitely think that chicken keeping is something that if you haven’t tried it, it should be at least something that you should try if you’re able to, because it really is, I think, and I think you would agree, worth it in the end between the eggs and just entertainment that chickens provide. Yeah, I think that that’s definitely something that everybody should at least have some experience with in their life. Well, Lisa, thank you so much for joining me again today. I’m sure that whether our listeners are long time chicken keepers or maybe still just dreaming about bringing home their first flock, they’re going to walk away feeling more encouraged and confident. And just a reminder for anyone who has ever tried to garden with chickens and maybe felt like they were fighting a losing battle, or just for anybody who wants to raise healthier birds while growing better food with fewer outside inputs, Lisa’s newly updated 10th anniversary edition of Gardening With Chickens is an invaluable resource to keep on yourself.
The book builds on the original release with new insights, refined systems, and lessons learned from more than a decade of additional hands-on experience. It officially releases in March, 2026 and is available for pre-order now at homestead living.com/gardening with dash chickens. We will of course link to that in the show notes, so you can check it out there. And also you can check out Lisa’s feature article, which is coming out in the March April issue of Homestead Living. She’s also on the cover. We got some beautiful photos. Again, just between your coop and your property, everything is just, I think it looks very idyllic, but you’re also showing that it can look very, you can do it in a beautiful way, but also in a very practical way. That makes a lot of sense. So the photos were beautiful. Lisa’s graced our cover of the march April issue, and she has also written a story where she’s also sharing some more of her top strategies for creating this kind of symbiotic relationship between your hens and your plants.
So you can visit homestead living.com/subscribe to start your subscription if you have not yet, and to continue learning from Lisa. Of course, you can find her online@fresheggsdaily.com or across all social media platforms as Fresh Eggs Daily. So Lisa, thank you once again. I always enjoy talking to you. Thanks. Before we wrap up today, I just want to thank you, our listeners for being a part of this community. If you’ve been listening for a while and haven’t yet joined us as a subscriber, this is your sign to start your subscription to Homestead Living Magazine. A Homestead Living subscription includes six beautifully printed issues each year, and they’re to be kept dogeared bookmarked, pulled off your shelf, and referred back to you again and again, every issue is filled with practical skills, seasonal guidance, and trusted voices who’ve put in the hours and learned the hard way so that you don’t have to right now, a full year, all six issues is just $49. And it is one of the best ways to support the work that we do here while building a home library that you’ll return to again and again as the editor, I may be a little bit biased, but if you value thoughtful, authentic, grounded guidance from people who don’t just talk the home setting talk, but actually walk the home setting walk, then this magazine was made for you. So you can start your subscription now by heading to homestead living.com/subscribe, or click the link in the show notes.